Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Guest on Mon Aug 27 2012, 21:58

@tempest if an F5 were to try to merge or get into a WVR fight with a SU 30mk2 they would quickly realise that their jet is underpowered, and not only will they get out manuvered, but the SUs will be able to shoot at them with missiles that can be fired and turn at 90 degree anles to them. They can also turn their radars off and use their IRST ball. Its time KDF upgrades. As for the airdefence radars the SUs can take them out with Kh33 antiradiation missiles

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  countersniper on Mon Aug 27 2012, 22:11

deconstructor wrote:@tempest if an F5 were to try to merge or get into a WVR fight with a SU 30mk2 they would quickly realise that their jet is underpowered, and not only will they get out manuvered, but the SUs will be able to shoot at them with missiles that can be fired and turn at 90 degree anles to them. They can also turn their radars off and use their IRST ball. Its time KDF upgrades. As for the airdefence radars the SUs can take them out with Kh33 antiradiation missiles


as things stand if hostilities were to break out between kdf and updf...the first priority for kdf is to prevent those sukhois taking off from Entebe...and believe you me... that will be done very very quickly.
we have people studying all kinds of scenarios on how to do this.. obviously getting INTO a stand off between an F5 AND SU30 is not one of them.

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Guest on Mon Aug 27 2012, 22:18


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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Guest on Mon Aug 27 2012, 22:21

@countersniper I agree you are probably right, I was only talking about a hypothetical situation

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  tempest on Mon Aug 27 2012, 22:50

deconstructor wrote:@tempest if an F5 were to try to merge or get into a WVR fight with a SU 30mk2 they would quickly realise that their jet is underpowered, and not only will they get out manuvered, but the SUs will be able to shoot at them with missiles that can be fired and turn at 90 degree anles to them. They can also turn their radars off and use their IRST ball. Its time KDF upgrades. As for the airdefence radars the SUs can take them out with Kh33 antiradiation missiles

I have a lot of respect for IRST. I think they are a great addition to the radars.

I agree the overall KDF solution will be complementing the F-5s with other assets.

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Risasi on Tue Aug 28 2012, 10:29

I see the fighter page is on light bulbs again.
Pre hand info. Before discussing and analysis without compromising essentials. And yes Spartan is a rare person I always salute his comments and directions.

F-5EM (E Modified): F-5BR (Brazilian callsign.) or F-5 Tiger III Plus (Chilean callsign) or commonally known as the 4 Gen Tigers
Radar: EL/M-2032 or Grifo-F radar both Max Range 120-150 km

F-5E (Jordanian upgrades)
Radar:AN/APG-67 or AN/APG-66T both range 100-140km BvR capable fitted with Head-Up Navigation and Targeting System, Radar Warning Receivers (RWR), Head-Up Display Weapon Aiming Computer (HUDWAC) ,HOTAS controls, BAe Laser INS, Forward Looking InfraRed (FLIR) and Selenia ALQ-234 ECM pods jamming pods

F-5E (standard)
Radar: AN/APG-69 or AN/APQ-159 both having a range of 60km

N/B
I deliberately gave two radar versions for each type, used and marketed on F-5s to avoid pointing out which radar the 3 F-5 types (all in use with KDF-AF) operate in.

The discussion you had before is based on QWI (qualified weapons instructors) studies. But before we go into nitty-gritty’s I would like to ask a few question and by answering them you will have cleared the gray areas in the above discussions. I would like to get answers from the above participants your contributions will be highly appreciated.. Here we go.

Q.1 In a BvR HEAD ON engagement with a 100km BVR missile range, at what distance will you release the missile
answer
a. before the enemy aircraft reaches the 100km so that the missile and aircraft will engage at the proxies of the100km hence a safest distance from you.
b.at the 100km mark, just to be sure the enemy aircraft is within the missiles bracket.
c. some distance inside the 100km mark based on the enemies aircrafts performance and specifications.

Q.2
At a merge, what would likely be the speeds of the general engagements?
a. at the speed of the high moving aircraft
b. at the speed of the low moving aircraft
c. depending on the chased pilots stamina’s

Q.3
Two aircrafts in a dogfight the lead; aircraft “A” slow moving e.g 100knts and the Lag; aircraft “B” fast moving on pursuit at 200knts, the lead aircraft executes a 5 G evasive turn. At what G will the lag aircraft be at in the purist?
a. same as aircraft A
b. lower than aircraft A
c. higher than aircraft A

What a Face

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  jasiri on Tue Aug 28 2012, 11:54

Q.1 In a BvR HEAD ON engagement with a 100km BVR missile range, at what distance will you release the missile
answer
a. before the enemy aircraft reaches the 100km so that the missile and aircraft will engage at the proxies of the100km hence a safest distance from you.
b.at the 100km mark, just to be sure the enemy aircraft is within the missiles bracket.
c. some distance inside the 100km mark based on the enemies aircrafts performance and specifications.

Q.2
At a merge, what would likely be the speeds of the general engagements?
a. at the speed of the high moving aircraft
b. at the speed of the low moving aircraft
c. depending on the chased pilots stamina’s

Q.3
Two aircrafts in a dogfight the lead; aircraft “A” slow moving e.g 100knts and the Lag; aircraft “B” fast moving on pursuit at 200knts, the lead aircraft executes a 5 G evasive turn. At what G will the lag aircraft be at in the purist?
a. same as aircraft A
b. lower than aircraft A
c. higher than aircraft A
For number 1 ad say C, i can't explain in clear language but i know that's what id do if i was a fighter pilot.
No. 2. engagement will be of the low moving aircraft (i assume its slow moving aircraft ryt?) If one aircraft engages at higher speed it will overshoot and generally have trouble keeping a safe distance for missile arming after firing or for avoiding debris incase of a kill.
No 3. C higher than a/c A becoz of centripetal forces?

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Batian on Wed Aug 29 2012, 12:05

@Blog rectification please.

I would like to correct the misunderstanding where it is referenced that the KDF's F5-EM (modified) is inferior to Sukhoi MkI-30. @countersniper, birds upgraded post 1975 are highly advanced aggressor units, the F5EM included, which is a standard and efficient multi-role aircraft. But the difference is observed (Depending on fitted Defensive Avionics/Radars) at the area of combat. [God forbid] In Kenyana we still have wars that perch foot-soldiers and some Electronic combat (EC) (at a small scale) as opposed to advanced warfare (that involve, the abilty to scramble fields booby-trapped with thermo-nuclear explosives, nuclear bombs...etc..etc).

@tempest
No doubt A2G modes are superior to A2A modes in terms of clarity, precision / velocity / ranging but in a common dogfight, it all boils down to the aircrafts defensive avionics. Case in points (a) An F5EM (Fitted with Electronic Jamming/confusing capabilities similar to the statrofotress(B-52,B-1) will in itself detect hostile emitters during (EC) Electronic Combat; making the Sukhoi (su-MK2-30's) radar-receivers and maneuverability counter-effective. (b) An F5EM pilot in a head-to-head BVR engagment encounters and discovers a blind pass realizing he has no time to merge prompting him to attack; what would by the accuracy of the target below Vis-a-vis an F15-Eagle, F1-14 (tomcat) who can easily engage a first-blind-pass on discovery?..

Here we go @Risasi on the QWI Q&As;

Q1.B Assuming that you engage first in the BVR, the pilot would be heading to the chopping block trying to probe the opponents aircraft performance and engagement.

Q2.B Off course the merge done perfectly at a constant speed gives the aircraft better retaking/gaining energy in a dog fight..

Q3.C while the lag aircraft is fast @200knts, the G will be higher than the lead aircraft at 100knts.

@Jasiri,

I will try to simplify my questions for you buddy Very Happy i.e if you do not understand whether they be statements of questions.

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  jasiri on Wed Aug 29 2012, 13:53

@Jasiri,

I will try to simplify my questions for you buddy i.e if you do not understand whether they be statements of questions.
afro

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  tempest on Wed Aug 29 2012, 14:22

Risasi wrote: Q.1 In a BvR HEAD ON engagement with a 100km BVR missile range, at what distance will you release the missile
answer
c. some distance inside the 100km mark based on the enemies aircrafts performance and specifications.

Q.2
At a merge, what would likely be the speeds of the general engagements?
c. depending on the chased pilots stamina’s

Q.3
Two aircrafts in a dogfight the lead; aircraft “A” slow moving e.g 100knts and the Lag; aircraft “B” fast moving on pursuit at 200knts, the lead aircraft executes a 5 G evasive turn. At what G will the lag aircraft be at in the purist?
c. higher than aircraft A

What a Face

My reasoning:

Q1. The max ranges given for missiles in brochures are for marketing purposes and are for the optimum conditions. I am sure the kill probability at max range is very low. Also from max range, your missile will have little energy left and could be dodged by the target. I also believe a missile launch (flash and exhaust plume) is one of the very detectable things in combat. i.e. using MAWS. Launching at this long range gives the target more warning, hence time and opportunities to evade = keep the missile at your 3-4 o'clock and turn towards the missile when there is a mile or two of seperation. That kind of thing. I think there is also the trick of "oscillating" (barrel roll) to deplete the missile's energy as the missile computes and predicts continuously a impact ahead of the target. ???

Assuming a closing speed of 1.53km (using Mach 4 for missile and 0.5 for target) you have a flight time of 65 seconds. The target could turn around, accelerate and escape. ... ... or if you launch a salvo, he could then turn back and come for you, then launch at a much closer range that gives him a higher Kp.

Q2. I believe for this reason the South American countries are using slow moving "trainers" (Tucanos and K-8s) to shoot down drug carrying light "civilian" planes. I think Sri Lankan F-7s had difficulties shooting the LTTE Lin Z 143s.

Q3. The pursuing plane also has to turn "inside" the target, so it got to turn tighter. Also for the same reason given by Jasiri. I.e. even if the chaser is trying to turn in the same radius, the, the higher "v", will require a higher "g", to keep "r" the same. It is for the same reason why a Mach 3-4 missile needs to do over 30Gs or 40Gs to catch a fighter doing only 8G at a much lower speed.

I believe the HM cueing and HOB missiles are making some of these no longer applicating.



Thanks.

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Risasi on Thu Aug 30 2012, 11:56

The main purpose from bring up the questionnaire in the discussion is to show that they are indeed several variable in WVR and BVR encounter and its not automatic death sentence100km away by a push of a button. Straight on to the subject due to constrain in time.
In Q1 the 100km missile range equate to a self-destruct distance. When the missile travels that range It wouldn’t have fuel to pursue farther onwards and it will go in a safe mode and self-destruct. so in answer one and two if targeted aircraft notice the missile coming turns punches the after burner and runs he will be out of the missile envelope in sec before the missile can reach him.
In order to engage in a productive BVR the missile has to be released at distance where if the targeted aircraft chooses to run, it can,t get out of the missiles envelope or distance before the missile reaches it.

Example; missile traveling at speed 2 mach range 100km against a targeted aircraft capable of 1 mach the missile should be released at a 50km mark in order for the missile to caught the aircraft before it runs out of its envelope. And even if so the impact will be at the near edge of the missile range which means that if the targeted aircraft climbed or and dived along the chase the missile will travel a greater distance than anticipated and run out of steam . Therefore the most effect range for the scenario will be between 40-50km mark i.e ans; C

Why I brought this question
BvR missile ranges a theoretical and not practical as such. In the above instance of 40-50km BvR is almost lost .the target aircraft can release its own missile short range WvR missiles with Lock-on After Launch aspect and because your traveling towards the targeted aircraft the distance between you and the short range missiles shrinks and the short-range missile will get their range in sec.. If you take evasive maneuvers your radar will loose contact of its target and the BVR missile will go blind. There so many variable that can play. BVR works well if the targeted aircraft doesn’t have self alert system like in the Korean War the F-4 vs the Mig19.

I will discuss the other two questions in the course of time.
i had time to talk to a F-16 pilot on such a situation and how they intend to do it. His answer was they will fly at super towards the approaching BVR missile craft. This helps them to
1. turn and run incase they want to attain a defensives posture
2. get in as fast as possible to make it a WvR dogfight.

Where are those wanna be pilot ACE what were drumming and plotting dog fights sorties???

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Guest on Thu Aug 30 2012, 13:13

Risasi your right, ignoring altitude, position, and direction BVR engagements will probably be at distances less than the max range of a missile, but generally A2A engagements are over in seconds with the advantage going to whoever has the better radar because they will detect and get the first shot. If they have to merge and switch to guns the advantage is to whoever has more power and is more manuverable. In both cases the F5 will loose. Am trying to avoid a flame war


Last edited by deconstructor on Thu Aug 30 2012, 13:42; edited 4 times in total

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Guest on Thu Aug 30 2012, 13:22

The F5 was designed in the 50s and was latter given to allied countries because is was cheap and easy to maintain. Most countries are replacing them, thats why Jordan got rid of theirs, even the T38 will probably be replaced soon

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Batian on Thu Aug 30 2012, 16:18

I totally agree with risasi on the answer number 1 because it was a theoretical questionnaire. however pilot skill, excellence and vast practical experience is necessary and also a factor that you can't overlook based on just advanced avionics. @ deconstructor let me give you encouragment about trying to avoid a flame war. So long as you present opinions with necessary data it is O.K. the only problem in forumming is presenting minus Data which would always be breeding unnecessary friction. That said F5-EM or its variants is currently utilized as Tac trainer for the USAF so I know what you mean by "cheap" that actually means that you could not get access to them. if and additional unit of F5EM is on offer I would not decline the offer reason being it is cheaply serviceable and easy to maintain and operate.

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Guest on Thu Aug 30 2012, 17:30

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/switzerland-replacing-its-f-5s-04624/

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  jasiri on Thu Aug 30 2012, 18:49

F-15's are apparently getting AESA radars, this is a very very heartening development. Very Happy

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Guest on Fri Aug 31 2012, 11:16

Great debate, that i really lack comfortable competence to fight with. Batian, Deconstruct, Sierra Kilo, Jas - way to go!!

A fly-boy colleague whispers to me that BVR is in a nutshell a Western luxury that isn't practical for a lot of other Air-Forces outside that Hemishphere, least of all KDF/AF. He says that ''you learn it, and move on to real old-fashioned WVR combat flying''.

Modern Aerial Engagements are short and crisps affairs, the longer engagement (of course not involving the bully America) lasting months went out in Korea II. So, in Kenyana, a Massed Air Assault from either Ethiopia or Uganda who be designed to cripple conclusively KDF/AF(air-frames and air-defenses) in one-fell swoop short engagement - It will take UPDF/AF twenty-five seconds from take-off Entebbe to overfly Eldoret and Kisumu, and just under three miinutes to be in LAB; at that rate, BVR serves Risasi squat.

Best Eagle pilots in the World are in the IAF and BVR combat is not a tactical practice in the IAF present deterrence strategy nor in their past wars with their neighbors.

So, guess who Risasi studies from daily,eh? Smile

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Risasi on Fri Aug 31 2012, 11:38

@ON wacha ni wa peleke hawa jamaa darasani. tena i give them homework na hesabu wa fanye...Very Happy

@all its good and healthy and also jogs my memory

@ deconstructor first and foremost it’s a good courtesy to salute the board when you are a newbie. They is a one Mr.Crane our chief whip he will whip you down if he discovers you didn’t do so..

2nd there lots of pre- 60ies aircraft design still in use to date the C-130 the B-2 bombers the list goes on and on its different Can of worms that I wouldn’t like to open now.

3rd again to you Mr deconstructor you always posting about a merge and dog fights.
how many scenarios can a merge crop up? And which will benefit from high speed i.e acceleration?
this question is meant for you deconstructor. so answer it first.in the last 3Q most members tried to give an answer but you sat on the fence waiting for an opportunity to pounce. I will wait for your answer before I can engage any further debate with you Laughing
P/s I am not putting that what you posted is wrong but merely suggest that its not a definite result as 1+1 shall be 2 .

4th Ya Su30 has a good radar you can see me at a distance but the situation changes when i have a Jamming pod. in fact it could cause you to fire unnecessary missiles cause pods like the Selenia ALQ-234 ECM , deceptive jamming capable you will end up with more contacts on your radar screen than their actually are out there.

Back at the topic at hand . the f-5 was constructed as a dog fighter and hence not a slow craft as one may think. it can fight in the same SPEED as and F-15, Su30,F-14 etc and be as agile and execute all basic fighter maneuver BFM like them, the key to successful dogfights. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOwkn3JKjmY&feature=relmfu

Don,t be fooled by what you see during flight passes those are maneuvers meant to salute the head of state they still a lots we can do with F-5. all similar to a 4gen fighter , the very reason it is chosen as an aggressor to fight the best pilots against their own familiar aircrafts (F-15,F-14 etc) at the Top Gun sch.

I guess the question in most is why then shift to 4th Gen fighter???? Now here is where it gets tricky . Most 4th Gen fighter have a higher thrust to weight ratio and better weapons management system. I will concentrate on the first aspect as it more related to Q2/3 a higher thrust to weight ratio indicates that the aircraft has larger (powerful) engines compared to the weight of its body. What means is that these aircrafts has a higher acceleration power in both vertical and horizontal vectors as a result of its engine. It doesn,t mean they can travel at a speed that the F-5 can’t travel .the 4Gen fighter can get to a speed quicker. e.g If both aircraft were traveling at speed 600 and choose to dash for 800 the 4Gen fighter will get at mark quicker than the F-5. Lets clear that first before we move on.

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Risasi on Fri Aug 31 2012, 11:49

In Q2 is related in answer to Q3 so I will deal with both.
At the merge the vocabulary that most of you were looking for is called corner speed. The corner speed influence the turning radius (turning distance/tight turn) and rate of turn.(assuming the aircrafts nose is a pointer how fast it moves in a imaginary 360 deg. Scale ).

The turning radius noted as TR is calculated as TR=V2/gG where V is the aircraft's velocity in feet/ second. Little g is gravity and big G is the G force the aircraft is pulling. It is not important to understand how to compute turn radius, but it is important to realize that velocity is squared and therefore to attain a low radius at faster speed (high velocity) you need a high G force. So although the aircraft is designed (large engine and aero dynamics) in theory to achieve a low turn radius at the speed the pilot will be subjected to a very high G force. Prolonged High G isn,t a pleasant feeling and wouldn,t like to have it at continues and sustainable rate in a dogfight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQUwdS0JF7Y&feature=fvwrel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK8U8RZyzsM&feature=related

Therefore the pilots has to have the stamina to sustain or he will get fatigued in sec and forced to fly at equal speed to the so called " lower moving aircraft" or even lower than the slower moving aircraft cause his run out of stamina which he initial had when entering the merge . but if he has the stamina(God given) he can do it (high acceleration chase) but this means he will have to take unnecessary high G to maintain the high speed momentum cause the F-5 too isn,t all that slow and whatever G that the F-5 is at the chasing pilot will be multiplied.


Jasiri has endured +/- 3G for a few sec. he can share with the forummers how its feels so.
ANS Q2/3 = C

Next I talk about the adjustment made on 4Gen to counter the above.

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  tempest on Fri Aug 31 2012, 12:36

I share the view that application of BVR is still limited even in the best of situations. I also believe having a weapon system in your inventory is a different animal to using it effectively operationally. I.e. how many militaries around the world have equipment rusting or destroyed by the opponents without that type of equipment carrying out a single successful mission? Not because the equipment is necessarily inferior but due to a lack of effective training, tactics and doctrines, other supporting assets to fully exploit the core weapon system. I would say it is still worth having it to learn, develop tactics, understand its short-coming etc, such that in another 5-10 years, the smaller airforces and start exploiting its perceived benefits.

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Spartan on Fri Aug 31 2012, 14:08

Risasi wrote:4th Ya Su30 has a good radar you can see me at a distance but the situation changes when i have a Jamming pod. in fact it could cause you to fire unnecessary missiles cause pods like the Selenia ALQ-234 ECM , deceptive jamming capable you will end up with more contacts on your radar screen than their actually are out there.

Back at the topic at hand . the f-5 was constructed as a dog fighter and hence not a slow craft as one may think. it can fight in the same SPEED as and F-15, Su30,F-14 etc and be as agile and execute all basic fighter maneuver BFM like them, the key to successful dogfights.

Someone just took this SU-30 vs F-5 argument to a Russian website for 'arbitration'. My own take on American fighters, and F-5s for that matter, is that squadrons are sent with a plane to specifically do the airborne jamming. An F-5 is not likely to have jamming devices on its own unlike the SU-30s that all come with a 'stand-alone' pair of defensive jamming pods at the tips and are 'multi-role' - with the ability to take on air defence, deep penetration, attack, bomber tasks as well as engage in dogfights.

What I agree on with most people is that pilot experience plays a big role. Whether or not an experienced F-5 pilot can take the day against an SU-30 is another matter altogether. There is no precedent to compare against since the two planes have never met in contested airspace.

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  cylon on Fri Aug 31 2012, 15:16

Then we have our own little war game scenario and test this issue F5 vs Su30

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  countersniper on Fri Aug 31 2012, 16:15

cylon wrote:Then we have our own little war game scenario and test this issue F5 vs Su30

if UPDF has the guts..then let them sent out an SU30 into Kenyan airspace announced from lets say Kacheloiba border area near turkwel gorge dam or through Eldoret malaba corridor..and we see what happens.

We are supposed to be having or used to be having at any one time three F5 tigers on standby interceptor duties at any one time at Laikipia air base and two at Mombasa FOB base,and two at Moi air base Nairobi as a last line of air defense over the capital..that used to be the arrangement sometime (years) back.
i wonder if these duties exist...what the air defense radar controller will do to try and intercept the UFO coming from uganda.. Very Happy

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Batian on Fri Aug 31 2012, 16:48

Totally Agree with @Spartan's position, that somebody else (airborne radio/mobile battalion) may be sent to do the specific task of airborne jamming though considering the production of birds don't only address merge and dogfight capabilities (To avoid making this topic become a sensor sorties, I would take @Risasi's direction); various aspects need consideration during Tac Jamming Counter-Measures (TJCM) using ECM pods. The suitability of a sensor will always remain its effectiveness in Detection and tracking, reliability / airborne situational awareness, signal detection rate (visibility of mobile targets), and geolocation capability.

But INTEL - correlation techniques can preempt threats of a Sukhoi hovering within WVR engagements through degrading using confusing/spoofing emitter-parameters. A pilot on a mach1 enabled F5-EM (modified) fitted with (HUD) Head-up-Display systems and with either a AN/ALQ-128 threat-warning receiver, ALQ-135 jamming system (with reactive jamming capability) will pose a challenge to a Sukhoi-30's (MK1/MK2) pilot. Most 4th Gen F-X variants are superior fighters by principal based on several accounts where they have downed MiG-x variants. And one wonders if the Sukhoi MiG-30-design is adapted from the 4-Gen fighters [large cockpit bubble / 360° view(F5-EM lacks), blended wing/body design/ Fly-by-Wirewire (FEW) control, reducing drag and enhancing stability]. The only difference for an F5-EM pilot while observing other features is he does not have a good 360° forward and downward visibility.


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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Guest on Fri Aug 31 2012, 16:57

''Preparedness'' has gone a few notches higher since you left, Countersniper, as the Threat Matrix grew sophistication. You recall there has been serious upgrade of Airstrips across Kenyan into Military-Compliant Status. Wajir is now on-stream larger than LAB, Manda fully Defensive-Operationaized.

Air Defense Ground / Air Assets, have been having a great time simulating splashing those SU30MkII at various stages of flight; hell, that has been everybody's favorite pastime - Deltas War-gaming covert strikes in their Base, the Paras getting a preemptive Bridgehead in Entebbe,in coordination with the Strike-Force, AirCav, Armored, Recce Crew, Deltas, Flyboys, Defense Schools, everyone!!

I think in a year or so it is conceivable KDF might be carrying out joint War-Games simulations with the UPDF and the ENDF. And that will be interesting stuff!! Cool

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Spartan on Fri Aug 31 2012, 17:26

countersniper wrote:
cylon wrote:Then we have our own little war game scenario and test this issue F5 vs Su30

if UPDF has the guts..then let them sent out an SU30 into Kenyan airspace announced from lets say Kacheloiba border area near turkwel gorge dam or through Eldoret malaba corridor..and we see what happens.

Reminds me of a guy who challenged another to try his wife, saying that his wife would never sleep with any other man. You don't want to know what happened.

@ ole Nkarei, be sure to include Nakasongola, Soroti and Gulu in the simulations. 'Enemy' craft can take off from any of those Laughing Laughing

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Guest on Fri Aug 31 2012, 17:27

Risasi I am sorry if you think I take long to answer, I dont sit at the computer all day waiting to post here ive got responsibilities. We might not even be in the same time zone. Yes there are a lot of old airplanes flying, but airframes have a finite life. What I have been trying to say about a merge if these planes were to meet is that the Su has off bore sight missiles and a merge might not even happen. If they did merge, like you said, the Su has a higher thrust to weight ratio which would make it accelerate faster even if the Su is havier and biggger. Although its size makes it get more lift. In response to your questions, I dont know how you reduced a comparison of two aircraft into 3 scenarios, there are too many other factors that can affect how to answer, like weather, pilot... 1+1 does not = 2

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  countersniper on Fri Aug 31 2012, 17:46

Spartan wrote:
countersniper wrote:
cylon wrote:Then we have our own little war game scenario and test this issue F5 vs Su30

if UPDF has the guts..then let them sent out an SU30 into Kenyan airspace announced from lets say Kacheloiba border area near turkwel gorge dam or through Eldoret malaba corridor..and we see what happens.

Reminds me of a guy who challenged another to try his wife, saying that his wife would never sleep with any other man. You don't want to know what happened.

@ ole Nkarei, be sure to include Nakasongola, Soroti and Gulu in the simulations. 'Enemy' craft can take off from any of those
Laughing Laughing

spartan
we know all those places you are likely and mostly to operate an su30 from IN UGANDA.
are you forgetting Ugandan total land surface area is less than half the size of Kenya? around 91,000 square miles versus 224,000 square miles with very little hiding places for Uganda once you factor in lake Victoria.. no matter where you take off from nothing is not within striking distance from any of our assets in Kenya.
good news is that we shall never put these to test because we are all on the same page..unless of course m7 has bigger ideas ..and judging by his speech in Iran during the NAM meeting the other day..the guy can think big. Very Happy

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Guest on Fri Aug 31 2012, 18:02

countersniper wrote:
Spartan wrote:
@ le Nkarei, be sure to include Nakasongola, Soroti and Gulu in the simulations. Laughing Laughing

@Spartan - we know all those places you are likely and mostly to operate an su30 from IN UGANDA:D

I know every Offensive/Defensive-capable Military-Value Asset in Uganda of relevance to Kenya, brother Spartan. Mapped to the detail. And updated on very regular basis too. There is just no point of going to the detail of these here, since it not really the purpose of our engagement here - this is a friendly field, not an espionage theatre, ama?

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Post  Spartan on Fri Aug 31 2012, 18:17

countersniper wrote:
spartan
we know all those places you are likely and mostly to operate an su30 from IN UGANDA.
are you forgetting Ugandan total land surface area is less than half the size of Kenya? around 91,000 square miles versus 224,000 square miles with very little hiding places for Uganda once you factor in lake Victoria.. no matter where you take off from nothing is not within striking distance from any of our assets in Kenya.
good news is that we shall never put these to test because we are all on the same page..unless of course m7 has bigger ideas ..and judging by his speech in Iran during the NAM meeting the other day..the guy can think big. Very Happy

Calm down, bro. All these references to strategic depth and the reach of your 'assets' is.... not... necessary. We know ours and we have enough equipment, men and experience to defend every inch. Ati hiding. From who? On our own turf? Just so you know, we believe we can handle any foreign threat from ANY neighboring state or non-state entity, and have always had the capacity to do so. Actually, I have more confidence in our anti-aircraft defences and men than in the Sukhois, which, by the look of things, are the ones that made the likes of you to take notice.

I will assume today it's your alter ego writing, because I can't explain the reason for your outbursts.

@ ole Nkarei, if you knew what you are saying you know, you would not boast here about those war game that see you landing in Entebbe in and taking Kampala in hours. This is a friendly forum but disrespect is disrespect.

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Re: Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

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