Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  HokumA on Mon Nov 12 2012, 14:42

Analyst wrote:
@Hokum..if KDF officers were involved why didn't they request aerial cover. The MD500 can comb the terrain.
The catastrophic ramifications of this operation only reflect an uncoordinated operation and poor planning.
What formation were they using to cover each other?
Did they study the geography of the terrain to ensure they had tactical advantage?
This reminds of the botched operation in Buruburu where 1100 bullets were wasted by 100 police officers.

This bandits are well armed and skilled an AK in hand is worth 5 G3's in AP/GSU/KPR hands (no pun intended), this thugs have carried a gun around longer than most of those MEN sent to track them down. The commander might have failed in terms of mission planning but the window of opportunity was too small hence the so called 'laxity'. If you have an opportunity to dance with those devils do remember to brief us on your experience in the most analytical way possible.

I am not sure why the KDF unit didn't call in air support maybe our resources are still tired up in the East or maybe they made the call but it was too late, we will wait for more information regarding this matter.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  mbs on Mon Nov 12 2012, 15:07

HokumA wrote:
Analyst wrote:
@Hokum..if KDF officers were involved why didn't they request aerial cover. The MD500 can comb the terrain.
The catastrophic ramifications of this operation only reflect an uncoordinated operation and poor planning.
What formation were they using to cover each other?
Did they study the geography of the terrain to ensure they had tactical advantage?
This reminds of the botched operation in Buruburu where 1100 bullets were wasted by 100 police officers.

This bandits are well armed and skilled an AK in hand is worth 5 G3's in AP/GSU/KPR hands (no pun intended), this thugs have carried a gun around longer than most of those MEN sent to track them down. The commander might have failed in terms of mission planning but the window of opportunity was too small hence the so called 'laxity'. If you have an opportunity to dance with those devils do remember to brief us on your experience in the most analytical way possible.

I am not sure why the KDF unit didn't call in air support maybe our resources are still tired up in the East or maybe they made the call but it was too late, we will wait for more information regarding this matter.
The sad bit about this whole fiasco operation, is that it could have been prevented. It has happened before and it will happen again. overloaded ferries in Mombasa sinks today and it will happen again one year down the road. If you tell me the communities are allowed to 'own' guns to protect themselves from other communities, then what are the police there for? Am not going to seat here and play the RIP maneno. If it takes 100 police officers lives for them to realise that they are not fit for the job at hand, then so be it. We cant continue propping up a system that fails time and time again when it comes to such operations. If the bad guys are more motivated than the police, then we are damned. Its high time we have a better trained police who are up to the job, and the powers that be, need to equip the police with all the tools required for the job.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  MWAURA on Mon Nov 12 2012, 15:12

Are we likely to play any role in collaboration, greater than
desk-jockeying, increasingly looks unlikely. Our SOCOM chaps that were
sent up north soon after ECOMOG came through kDoD to peruse through the
OLN book, came back not too happy about prospect for effective
collaboration.
Joint ops are never as easy as they seem,different equipment,training and ethos but in this case what was the issue? Was it discipline as the report alluded to? Political manenos in Mali too intricate.....elaborate if possible.
If the standard report is correct they were ambushed on their truck. A similar thing happened in 89 to ASTU on a poacher ambush in Nairobi Park. You remember Zoomaliya had already entered terminal collapse and army and subclan militias at the time were treating Kenya as a private hunting reserve-even in the capital city! Anyway a poacher section had been surrounded by a KA detachment when suddenly the ASTU lorry blundered into the killzone. To this day nobody knows why or how just that the entire section absorbed over a thousand rounds from 2 separate RPKs. None survived.
IMO,the whole Suguta valley should be made into a gov't training area for the forces to end this bullshit once and for all.

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inept police

Post  mbs on Mon Nov 12 2012, 15:45

Its high time heads roll in the Police Service and probably appoint a civilian to head the organisation and run it as a company out to make a profit; If you dont deliver service to the wananchi then your contract is terminated. The rot that is in the Service is known and can be fixed, if only there is the will to do so. Why in the hell dont we recruit ex KDF personel or second personel from the KDF who can be contracted to fix the rot. KDF in the combat regions in Somalia and whereas must be seething with Anger when they hear that the Police are being bribed to allow contraband into the country.Does anyone knows the countries that opposed the Kenya Navy joining the UN Mandate ?

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  mogen on Mon Nov 12 2012, 15:47

[quote="MWAURA"]
...the whole Suguta valley should be made into a gov't training area for the forces to end this bullshit once and for all.

Taking the area and turning it into a training camp will give security forces control of the area and that will finish the bandit manenos.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  mogen on Mon Nov 12 2012, 15:52

mbs wrote:Its high time heads roll in the Police Service and probably appoint a civilian to head the organisation and run it as a company out to make a profit; If you dont deliver service to the wananchi then your contract is terminated. The rot that is in the Service is known and can be fixed, if only there is the will to do so. Why in the hell dont we recruit ex KDF personel or second personel from the KDF who can be contracted to fix the rot. KDF in the combat regions in Somalia and whereas must be seething with Anger when they hear that the Police are being bribed to allow contraband into the country.

Even more annoying, police house al shabaab agents who have already killed innocent people, then escort them to Nairobi where they cause more deaths. Surely, everyone must be sheeting with anger of these repeated occurrences. Their day of reckoning is surely coming.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  HokumA on Mon Nov 12 2012, 17:07

mbs wrote:Its high time heads roll in the Police Service and probably appoint a civilian to head the organisation and run it as a company out to make a profit; If you dont deliver service to the wananchi then your contract is terminated. The rot that is in the Service is known and can be fixed, if only there is the will to do so. Why in the hell dont we recruit ex KDF personel or second personel from the KDF who can be contracted to fix the rot. KDF in the combat regions in Somalia and whereas must be seething with Anger when they hear that the Police are being bribed to allow contraband into the country.Does anyone knows the countries that opposed the Kenya Navy joining the UN Mandate ?

Major Gen. Hussein Ali was former KDF (trained commando according to sources) and look at the job he did, the only person who come close to sorting the mess in the police force was Kinuthia Mbugua the former AP commandant. He managed to turn the AP force around from a small unit guarding chief camps to a 40K strong unit which is batter trained and equipped than the sister force they even have ambulances and new gear (lovely women too).

No! we can't have a civilian commanding the police force, this is a disciplined force and I know its hard for civilians to understand the term 'disciplined' but when you wear that uniform you will get the point. To fix the issues in the force you need political will, get new POLICE blood in to the command structure, equip the personnel with body armor, helios and APC's and lastly pay those Men/Woman with something more than peanuts. To say the truth things are happening the traffic police have gotten new bikes to move around AP is in a better shape plus the new curriculum in Kaganjo and Embakasi is taking shape. This reforms we keeping asking for will take time, heck this days police are the victims its not a good thing but if you look hard enough there is light at the end of the tunnel.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  mbs on Mon Nov 12 2012, 17:47

HokumA wrote:
mbs wrote:Its high time heads roll in the Police Service and probably appoint a civilian to head the organisation and run it as a company out to make a profit; If you dont deliver service to the wananchi then your contract is terminated. The rot that is in the Service is known and can be fixed, if only there is the will to do so. Why in the hell dont we recruit ex KDF personel or second personel from the KDF who can be contracted to fix the rot. KDF in the combat regions in Somalia and whereas must be seething with Anger when they hear that the Police are being bribed to allow contraband into the country.Does anyone knows the countries that opposed the Kenya Navy joining the UN Mandate ?

Major Gen. Hussein Ali was former KDF (trained commando according to sources) and look at the job he did, the only person who come close to sorting the mess in the police force was Kinuthia Mbugua the former AP commandant. He managed to turn the AP force around from a small unit guarding chief camps to a 40K strong unit which is batter trained and equipped than the sister force they even have ambulances and new gear (lovely women too).

No! we can't have a civilian commanding the police force, this is a disciplined force and I know its hard for civilians to understand the term 'disciplined' but when you wear that uniform you will get the point. To fix the issues in the force you need political will, get new POLICE blood in to the command structure, equip the personnel with body armor, helios and APC's and lastly pay those Men/Woman with something more than peanuts. To say the truth things are happening the traffic police have gotten new bikes to move around AP is in a better shape plus the new curriculum in Kaganjo and Embakasi is taking shape. This reforms we keeping asking for will take time, heck this days police are the victims its not a good thing but if you look hard enough there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Am sorry Hokuma I have to disagree with you here. Even though the police are a disciplined force, they are not answerable at the moment to any civilian body hence you end up with situations where the police are motivated only by kitu kidogo. At the moment I dont think that lack of equipments is the biggest problem facing the Police, but lack of motivation and professionalism. I cant remember any senior Police Officer being demoted or fired as a result of ineptitude, but we hear all the time that they are being reshuffled from one corner of the country to the other ! In any case, if you get transfered to a 'hardship area' you must have either pissed someone or really messed up. personally I think senior heads should role and they should be up for retraining every year.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Neutral Ground on Mon Nov 12 2012, 21:08

Gentlemen these pictures I came across may lift your spirits after that
stressful Suguta maneno.

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/1452/ki3mm.jpg

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/484/ki4ru.jpg

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9452/ki5r.jpg

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  areba on Mon Nov 12 2012, 23:01

I have always been of the opinion that the anti stock theft unit should set up a training center in the floor of the suguta valley... its taking a legendary stature and needs to be tamed, permanently..

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  areba on Mon Nov 12 2012, 23:02

[quote="mogen"]
MWAURA wrote:
...the whole Suguta valley should be made into a gov't training area for the forces to end this bullshit once and for all.

Taking the area and turning it into a training camp will give security forces control of the area and that will finish the bandit manenos.
clearly echoed my thoughts..

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  areba on Mon Nov 12 2012, 23:08

mbs wrote:
Major Gen. Hussein Ali was former KDF (trained commando according to sources) and look at the job he did, the only person who come close to sorting the mess in the police force was Kinuthia Mbugua the former AP commandant. He managed to turn the AP force around from a small unit guarding chief camps to a 40K strong unit which is batter trained and equipped than the sister force they even have ambulances and new gear (lovely women too).

LOL
mbs wrote:
No! we can't have a civilian commanding the police force, this is a disciplined force and I know its hard for civilians to understand the term 'disciplined' but when you wear that uniform you will get the point. To fix the issues in the force you need political will, get new POLICE blood in to the command structure, equip the personnel with body armor, helios and APC's and lastly pay those Men/Woman with something more than peanuts. To say the truth things are happening the traffic police have gotten new bikes to move around AP is in a better shape plus the new curriculum in Kaganjo and Embakasi is taking shape. This reforms we keeping asking for will take time, heck this days police are the victims its not a good thing but if you look hard enough there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Am sorry Hokuma I have to disagree with you here. Even though the police are a disciplined force, they are not answerable at the moment to any civilian body hence you end up with situations where the police are motivated only by kitu kidogo. At the moment I dont think that lack of equipments is the biggest problem facing the Police, but lack of motivation and professionalism. [/quote] Which i believe comes in many forms, some monetary, some equipment and mostly training.

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Police Problem

Post  Analyst on Mon Nov 12 2012, 23:27


I watched Mr Kiraithe, the police spokesperson bite the bullet ....'THE PLANNING OF THE OPERATION WAS POOR, THE LEVEL OF COORDINATION WAS POOR, AND WORSE, THE TROOPS LACKED TACTICAL ADVANTAGE...THEY WERE SITTING DUCKS'.....They were my words this morning.

The type of guns, poor pay, and poor living conditions cannot influence a sane human to take a dive of death, at-least 40 sane humans.
What factored this massacre is mere lack of professionalism which, the government uses against the police to inadequately pay them.
Why would you pay a guard who fails to understand the guards code of ethics?
If the police force can subscribe to and uphold the code of ethics, they could be capable, available, and effective.


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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  areba on Mon Nov 12 2012, 23:28

that said, maybe another "wagalla" is due....

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  mogen on Tue Nov 13 2012, 02:43

Analyst wrote:
I watched Mr Kiraithe, the police spokesperson bite the bullet ....'THE PLANNING OF THE OPERATION WAS POOR, THE LEVEL OF COORDINATION WAS POOR, AND WORSE, THE TROOPS LACKED TACTICAL ADVANTAGE...THEY WERE SITTING DUCKS'.....They were my words this morning.

The type of guns, poor pay, and poor living conditions cannot influence a sane human to take a dive of death, at-least 40 sane humans.
What factored this massacre is mere lack of professionalism which, the government uses against the police to inadequately pay them.
Why would you pay a guard who fails to understand the guards code of ethics?
If the police force can subscribe to and uphold the code of ethics, they could be capable, available, and effective.


107 Officers deployed - Many of them recent graduates with little understanding of the geography
42 confirmed dead - 6 unaccounted for [presumed dead]
1st attack happened Saturday night
2nd attack happened Sunday - bandits got the officers injured previous night still in the bushes
no protective gear/body armour [apparently in short supply]
not enough ammunition - ran out of ammunition and they were killed and police guns taken
the bandits were more combat-prepared than the security forces - were in 2 groups. one provided cover
police had no cover - [aerial or ground :-police choppers are for surveillance only [no combat role]

Inexcusable tactical/operational failure that ashamed the nation.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  mogen on Tue Nov 13 2012, 02:54

areba wrote:
mbs wrote:
Major Gen. Hussein Ali was former KDF (trained commando according to sources) and look at the job he did, the only person who come close to sorting the mess in the police force was Kinuthia Mbugua the former AP commandant. He managed to turn the AP force around from a small unit guarding chief camps to a 40K strong unit which is batter trained and equipped than the sister force they even have ambulances and new gear (lovely women too).

LOL
mbs wrote:
No! we can't have a civilian commanding the police force, this is a disciplined force and I know its hard for civilians to understand the term 'disciplined' but when you wear that uniform you will get the point. To fix the issues in the force you need political will, get new POLICE blood in to the command structure, equip the personnel with body armor, helios and APC's and lastly pay those Men/Woman with something more than peanuts. To say the truth things are happening the traffic police have gotten new bikes to move around AP is in a better shape plus the new curriculum in Kaganjo and Embakasi is taking shape. This reforms we keeping asking for will take time, heck this days police are the victims its not a good thing but if you look hard enough there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Am sorry Hokuma I have to disagree with you here. Even though the police are a disciplined force, they are not answerable at the moment to any civilian body hence you end up with situations where the police are motivated only by kitu kidogo. At the moment I dont think that lack of equipments is the biggest problem facing the Police, but lack of motivation and professionalism.
Which i believe comes in many forms, some monetary, some equipment and mostly training. [/quote]

Gentlemen
Maj-Gen Ali heading the Police force was a good thing. Problem is you don't change a rotten culture by just replacing the guy at the top and keeping the corruption networks intact. A complete overhaul top to bottom and even at the training institution. Recruitment is corrupt, promotion and posting corrupt, few of those senior officers at the top will have clean hands and their colleagues know it. How can one have the moral leg to stand on when he himself is of questionable integrity? 'Disciplined forces' cannot be rightly applied to Kenya police. They are a terribly indisciplined force, blue uniform notwithstanding.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Analyst on Tue Nov 13 2012, 09:27

Kenya making Mamba MK5 armoured vehicles.
Manufacturer Osprea Technologies.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Sierra Kilo on Tue Nov 13 2012, 09:38

Analyst wrote:Kenya making Mamba MOre armoured vehicles.
Manufacturer Osprea Technologies.

In the near future may be,

http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Armoured-car-dealer-to-open--plant-in-Kenya-/-/539550/1618520/-/10ajkkq/-/index.html

This should make the GOK invest more robustly on on APCs for the Police in Bandit prone areas. The miltary also ought to work more closely with the policing authorities to provide resources where there are shortfalls.

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HEADS MUST ROLL

Post  Guest on Tue Nov 13 2012, 10:10

areba wrote:that said, maybe another "wagalla" is due....


@ areba you've echoed my thoughts.a major operation is due & many will suffer.but if the counter offensive takes too long the brigands may cross over to either UG or S.S. these thugs must be hunted & taught a lesson asap.maybe KDF should provide back-up to the police as the weapons are taken from the merciless criminals

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Analyst on Tue Nov 13 2012, 11:04

Beating up these thugs won't stop their 17th century Mongolian civilization ways.....
Buying off the valley and turning it to a vast ranching area with conservancy sections will be the solution.
Whereby investors can build milk processing plants, dairy products plants, and factories to process and preserve agricultural produce for emerging markets will open up the area to civilization.
This strategy degrades the uncivilized ways of these Mongolians.
Roads and air strips will make the geography of the area simple to navigate and secure.
These Mongols will have no choice but go to school and learn to secure jobs in those industries.

BUT IF THIS CANNOT SUFFICE TO REHABILITATE THEM, THEN WE SHOULD DEPLOY ANTHRAX AND GET RID OF THOSE DAMNED CATTLE, GOATS AND WHATEVER ANIMAL THEY HAVE. THAT WAY THEY RUSTLE THEMSELVES.


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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Guest on Tue Nov 13 2012, 15:36

MWAURA wrote:
Are we likely to play any role in collaboration, greater than
desk-jockeying, increasingly looks unlikely. Our SOCOM chaps that were
sent up north soon after ECOMOG came through kDoD to peruse through the
OLN book, came back not too happy about prospect for effective
collaboration.
Joint ops are never as easy as they seem,different equipment,training and ethos but in this case what was the issue? Was it discipline as the report alluded to? Political manenos in Mali too intricate.....elaborate if possible.

In a nutshell without being simplistic - they reckon there is a huge disconnect between the Political Economy and Military imperative of this Malian conundrum. Politely put, the barking is deafening loud but the dog has swollen bloody gums! If anyone goes to bed with ECOWAS on this Malian jig, there is strong likelihood they will end up wanking (!sorry) themselves.

Further, and if you consider the juxtapositioning of Mali on the wider Demographic Map, it becomes clear why both Mauritania and Algeria have rejected the Military Option - and not because of their traditional antagonistic history with France. While ECOWAS has fallen to the seductions of the French, the Arab North Nations have instituted negotiations with Anser Din and their Tuereg Cousins in Mali.

The french hold that a political solution must not supersede a Military determination over what they are calling a "security situation". In other words they French are determined to ensure the Status Quo of there influence over their old Arab and West African Colonies.

Because of this critical disconnect, a AU Military Mission in Mali lacks clear coherent African Agenda. At the present moment. Whileas the French-inspired half-Division Expeditionary Force plan is now before the AU Peace + Security Council, considerable thinking is that the AU will defer to a Negotiated Resolution until it can fully debunk the Military. Agenda from the corruption of the French Italians Poles and Danes - french interests must find accommodation in African Interests as in Zoomaliya with AMISOM.

Let us send off with dignity our departed Police brothers. And reconcile ourselves fullybto the enormity of this horrible event in Baragoi. A fighting Company went in. 45 dead and 9 recovered alive.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Mbaine on Tue Nov 13 2012, 19:03

Sad as the news may be there is precious little we can do except to steel our resolve that this shall never happen again and make sure steps in that direction.
Civilian or not, the new IG should be visionary with a his fingers on the pulse of the force. At the end of the day the policemen are our fathers, brothers, sisters, cousins... they are our families and we would always want them to come back home and they must be afforded the best chance to do so whether by improving kitting, C2, tactical capabilities or any other factor to tilt the balance in their favour. The IG must be an individual hell bent on making this happen and making the force one that is capable of securing the country the whole of Kenya .
Again let us not broker impunity in these bandits, even Jesus said that they that live by the sword... Ni hayo tu kwa sasa.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Flying Crane on Tue Nov 13 2012, 20:13

I am following the discussion on the slain Kenya police offices, and as a uniformeer, I sympathies with them its always not easy to go full out on war on your fellow citizen ,or else you might find yourself fit for the Hague Dock. Anyway I would like to hear what the Civvy side of the blogs has to say . a lot of rhetoric is throw about on training and the like , I feel that the Kenya police does have general Good train apart form what goes on under the table , the training is fine. So what else would you like to see happen in form of training to the Kenya police force. I beg to discuss with the civy forummers.

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Re:Kenya Defence Forces

Post  proud kenyan on Tue Nov 13 2012, 21:59

Flying Crane wrote:I am following the discussion on the slain Kenya police offices, and as a uniformeer, I sympathies with them its always not easy to go full out on war on your fellow citizen ,or else you might find yourself fit for the Hague Dock. Anyway I would like to hear what the Civvy side of the blogs has to say . a lot of rhetoric is throw about on training and the like , I feel that the Kenya police does have general Good train apart form what goes on under the table , the training is fine. So what else would you like to see happen in form of training to the Kenya police force. I beg to discuss with the civy forummers.
Training,not so much.they are too lax.even though there is no threat they carry their guns in the same stride as our politicians with their walking sticks/regalia.posture also a problem,they also tend to project fear due to the weapon in their hand.tactics are also pathetic.where i live there is a gang of young motorcycle thugs who move around based on the presence of a police landrover at a nearby police post.this points to them having an observer nearby,but nothing has been done so far. and how many people have ever been to a police station requesting their assistance and all subsequent talk is based on the size of the bribe they want to get moving. even as we mourn our fallen, most of the responses on this page are from civvys who have experienced their colleagues 1st hand. they may be underpaid,but even if they start earning salaries similar to our lawmakers do you think their work ethic and motivation will rise?hell no. i wont talk much on that.
maybe the only silver lining that can come from this is the area being turned to a training ground, i believe the locals would benefit more from the sound of risasi's new toys as compared to those soon-to-be-dead cattle rustlers.
going back in time to when the government sent the KDF to mt elgon and every tom,dick and harry were criticising the government left right and centre. fast foward to present day, the toms,dicks and harrys want the KDF in each and every troule hotspot in the country. that came from the motivation within the soldiers to show their professionalism in every thing they do, for that KUDOS KDF.
there was talk of having a joint command centre for the different branches of the security arms. what came of the plan? i believe if it were in place the baragoi incident would have been a totally different scenario.


Last edited by proud kenyan on Tue Nov 13 2012, 22:04; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : adding a question)

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Uzi on Tue Nov 13 2012, 22:05

Flying Crane wrote:I am following the discussion on the slain Kenya police offices, and as a uniformeer, I sympathies with them its always not easy to go full out on war on your fellow citizen ,or else you might find yourself fit for the Hague Dock. Anyway I would like to hear what the Civvy side of the blogs has to say . a lot of rhetoric is throw about on training and the like , I feel that the Kenya police does have general Good train apart form what goes on under the table , the training is fine. So what else would you like to see happen in form of training to the Kenya police force. I beg to discuss with the civy forummers.

Basic KPS training is above board. I believe the partly the problem might be due to apathy gathered after the training hence the need for compulsory refresher courses. Even civy's know something is wrong when police on duty guarding banks huddle together engrossed on talk or reading newspapers. Its common to find others fiddling with their gizmos with their arms on the ground next to them. This particular incident has more to do with tactical blunders from commander(s). The raiders were not riding on APC's nor did they have bullet proof jackets careful planning and strategy made all the difference.

It was back in nineteen forty-two,
I was a member of a good platoon.
We were on maneuvers in-a Loozianna,
One night by the light of the moon.
The captain told us to ford a river,
That's how it all begun.
We were -- knee deep in the Big Muddy,
But the big fool said to push on.

The Sergeant said, "Sir, are you sure,
This is the best way back to the base?"
"Sergeant, go on! I forded this river
'Bout a mile above this place.
It'll be a little soggy but just keep slogging.
We'll soon be on dry ground."
We were -- waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool said to push on.

The Sergeant said, "Sir, with all this equipment
No man will be able to swim."
"Sergeant, don't be a Nervous Nellie,"
The Captain said to him.
"All we need is a little determination;
Men, follow me, I'll lead on."
We were -- neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool said to push on.

All at once, the moon clouded over,
We heard a gurgling cry.
A few seconds later, the captain's helmet
Was all that floated by.
The Sergeant said, "Turn around men!
I'm in charge from now on."
And we just made it out of the Big Muddy
With the captain dead and gone.

We stripped and dived and found his body
Stuck in the old quicksand.
I guess he didn't know that the water was deeper
Than the place he'd once before been.
Another stream had joined the Big Muddy
'Bout a half mile from where we'd gone.
We were lucky to escape from the Big Muddy
When the big fool said to push on.

Well, I'm not going to point any moral;
I'll leave that for yourself
Maybe you're still walking, you're still talking
You'd like to keep your health.
But every time I read the papers
That old feeling comes on;
We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.

Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep! Neck deep! Soon even a
Tall man'll be over his head, we're
Waist deep in the Big Muddy!
And the big fool says to push on!

Words and music by Pete Seeger (1967)
TRO (c) 1967 Melody Trails, Inc. New York, NY

Uzi

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  areba on Tue Nov 13 2012, 22:15

Uzi wrote:
It was back in nineteen forty-two,
I was a member of a good platoon.
We were on maneuvers in-a Loozianna,
One night by the light of the moon.
The captain told us to ford a river,
That's how it all begun.
We were -- knee deep in the Big Muddy,
But the big fool said to push on.

The Sergeant said, "Sir, are you sure,
This is the best way back to the base?"
"Sergeant, go on! I forded this river
'Bout a mile above this place.
It'll be a little soggy but just keep slogging.
We'll soon be on dry ground."
We were -- waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool said to push on.

The Sergeant said, "Sir, with all this equipment
No man will be able to swim."
"Sergeant, don't be a Nervous Nellie,"
The Captain said to him.
"All we need is a little determination;
Men, follow me, I'll lead on."
We were -- neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool said to push on.

All at once, the moon clouded over,
We heard a gurgling cry.
A few seconds later, the captain's helmet
Was all that floated by.
The Sergeant said, "Turn around men!
I'm in charge from now on."
And we just made it out of the Big Muddy
With the captain dead and gone.

We stripped and dived and found his body
Stuck in the old quicksand.
I guess he didn't know that the water was deeper
Than the place he'd once before been.
Another stream had joined the Big Muddy
'Bout a half mile from where we'd gone.
We were lucky to escape from the Big Muddy
When the big fool said to push on.

Well, I'm not going to point any moral;
I'll leave that for yourself
Maybe you're still walking, you're still talking
You'd like to keep your health.
But every time I read the papers
That old feeling comes on;
We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.

Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep! Neck deep! Soon even a
Tall man'll be over his head, we're
Waist deep in the Big Muddy!
And the big fool says to push on!

Words and music by Pete Seeger (1967)
TRO (c) 1967 Melody Trails, Inc. New York, NY
Made my day.

areba

Posts : 207
Join date : 2011-09-10
Age : 35
Location : Kilifi

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Sierra Kilo on Tue Nov 13 2012, 22:19

The National Security Council under the chairmanship of the President has ordered for an immediate disarmament operation in Samburu county and instigation of peace building efforts amongst the warring communities in the area. The council has also authorised the deployment of the military to beef up the police during the disarmament process.

They were testing the waters, now they will know how deep the river is - Iteere

Sierra Kilo

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Observer on Wed Nov 14 2012, 12:58

Howdy people, it been a while... this Suguta issue is indeed an ugly ulcer... Our security forces have “played” with these bandits for couple of decades now and we ought to have the upper hand by now, however this cattle rustling maneno goes deeper, there’s a whole complicated cattle rustling economy involved, to which the Turkana or Samburu whomever is the “rustler” at the time security officers are killed becomes a victim in a big game of misplaced resource allocation, and poor internal security priorities and planning. The plan to put up a military base at the entry point to Suguta valley has been
around for a long while and the reason it has never been realized is telling… the Suguta should not be a quagmire this far in Kenya’s story.

As of police training, if indeed it has progressed from the “Adui ni mwananchi” days, then there needs to be tighter mechanisms of ensuring the force is always at its optimum; cyclic training; covering the whole spectrum skill at arms, PT, Intel gathering, crime detection...the whole lot, and deployment regimes similar to those in the KDF…these guys should be kept on toes. They also need better working conditions (they seriously need lightly armed birds for their airwing, APC's would also come in handy considering our arena of crime cuts across sophisticated organized urban crime to cattle rustling and banditry in forsaken frontiers) including pay, better communication equipment, stricter oversight that is able to take concrete action on errant officers… and they also need to specialize, I don’t understand what regular cops do in frontier deployments while we have the GSU and the ASTU, the latter should be upgraded n properly equipped and take more active roles in such matters while the regulars specialize in combating urban crime… but all said if the cattle rustling economy is not dismantled and its root causes addressed we shall always have to deploy forces in this backlands and there will always be grave casualties to talk about; either cops or the nomadic communities …the entire northern frontier is a mess of social and economic neglect resulting in a society that is easily manipulated and misused…

Observer

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  countersniper on Wed Nov 14 2012, 18:15

THERE WAS A TIME GSU and ASTU was good and more than enough to deal with this situation.
problem is lack of proper equipment ammunition's and strategy..
SENDING COPS TO SUGUTA valley with just a clip of rounds each in the g3 or ak 47 and without extensive air survey is suicide.
i have trained there and i know that terrain needs a military like approach..
in the 1980S MOI had a permanent GSU and astu PRESENCE and army operating from KIBISCH all the time and they would nip such attacks even before they happened and the Kenyan public never got to know about this.
suguta valley is one if not the hottest places in east Africa.temperatures are deadly if not properly understood


THESE COPS were sitting ducks once they approached the valley without scouting the surrounding hillsides that form an S and U like culdesack where once the snipers hide above the hillsides in an elevated position.. those below will be picked off like stationery targets... these cops had no chance... hence the heavy death toll and with no backup they could all have been killed.

countersniper

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Observer on Wed Nov 14 2012, 23:45

countersniper wrote:in the 1980S MOI had a permanent GSU and astu PRESENCE and army operating from KIBISCH
...what happened to the Kibisch base? i understand the base became a pin in the ass for some bigwigs who were benefiting from the cattle theft ... bei ya nyama Nairobi ilikuwa down sana...

Observer

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

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