Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  MWAURA on Thu Apr 18 2013, 19:42

jasiri wrote:@ Mjeshi Mmoja, this looks like something you would absolutely love. Beats uncle Woo's boat hands down. Packs a serious punch for such a small vessel. Ivan calls it the Buyan class OPV's for patrolling EEZ's and anti-piracy, smuggling fisheries...basically, Kenya Navy's daily job.

1 x 100 mm main gun
2 x 30 mm AK-630 or 1x40 A-215 "Grad-M" (id go for a mix of both. 2 grad equiped, 2 AK 630 equiped..who knows when an amphib op would need arty support?)
8 x SS-N-27 (Kalibr) AShM in 14UKSK VLS
1x4 3M-47 Gibka (Igla-1M)
2x1 14.5 mm, 3x1 7.62 mm

3 ships like this and even the South African won't dare cross into our sights.

WOLOLOLOAYEEE! That little thing has more firepower than most destroyers! That's truly an optimised combination of deckspace and firepower-only the Russians could have designed this babe. If there was a slightly bigger variant with a closed chopper deck it would be a great corvette. Bt,it seems to have an underwater exhaust sytem-great for heat dispersal.
Olekoima,I've just read that piece-ignore these monkeys! They're not worth a response.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  jasiri on Thu Apr 18 2013, 21:01

@Mwaura, apparently this design can also result in sea water getting into the engines. All in all this is one marvelous design. Now wait for a cheaper more armed version from China.
Yes, There's a larger version called the Buyan M at 950 ton displacement. The real beauty from the Russian docks however is the Streguschy Class Corvettes. This beauties are just marvelous!

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  jasiri on Thu Apr 18 2013, 21:11

nani huyo?

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  mogen on Fri Apr 19 2013, 06:52

Kobooz wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=Pp0Z1EafiWs
This must be conspiracy theory unless N. korea suddenly suffers an earth quake! Lets keep watching

More interesting stuff


'UNSEALED'

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HAARP

Post  Kobooz on Sat Apr 20 2013, 11:20

We need some regional decoding of this rather interesting topic. It is a scary possibility uncle sammy being able to fry our heads at will!

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  mogen on Sat Apr 20 2013, 13:16

Kobooz wrote:We need some regional decoding of this rather interesting topic. It is a scary possibility uncle sammy being able to fry our heads at will!

North Koreans bluffed and huffed about attacking the US but when the US quietly moves a tinny portion of it arsenal closer to their territory the North Koreans are suddenly in panic and so is China which has dispatched its Pyongyang-based envoy to Washington. Of course, the US could very well be upto some mischief.

I don't know if there is any connection but I just read that a 6.6 - 7 strong earthquake hit Sichuan Province of China [site of a massive quake that hit in 2008]. Weak fault lines you might say. Accuracy/precision may not be 100% but manmade earthquakes aren't impossible. For instance, French undersea nuclear weapons testing in New Caledonia, South Pacific, has been has been associated with a number of earthquakes in the area.

Here is the story:

wrote:Earthquake hits China's Sichuan province

Earthquake which hit shortly after 8am local time strikes same area that was devastated in 2008

Associated Press in Beijing


  • guardian.co.uk,
    Saturday 20 April 2013 03.10 BST


A powerful earthquake jolted China's Sichuan province on Saturday, killing at least two people in the same area where a devastating quake struck five years ago.
The
Chinese government's seismological bureau and state-run television said
the quake hit shortly after 8am in Lushan county in the city of Ya'an,
home to China's famous pandas.
The news office for the Sichuan
provincial government said on its official microblog account that two
people were reported killed in Lushan and that two townships had
suffered severe damages.
The bureau initially measured the quake
at magnitude-7, while the US Geological Survey recorded it at
6.6-magnitude, powerful enough to cause severe damage. Its depth was
shallow, less than 8 miles (13kms), which could magnify the impact.
The Xinhua News Agency said that the quake rattled buildings in the provincial capital of Chengdu, 70 miles to the east.
The provincial news office said the quake was felt in neighbouring provinces.
The epicentre lies along the same Longmenshan fault where the devastating 7.9-magnitude quake struck in May 2008, leaving more than 90,000 people dead or missing and presumed dead.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/20/earthquake-china-sichuan-province

Other reports:L

The US Navy is reportedly deploying the huge Sea-based X-band radar to
the Korean Peninsula what suggests that North Korea could be hit by a
massive HAARP-made earthquake anytime soon.

US Sea-Based X-Band Radar-1 (SBX-1)


The Sea-Based X-Band Radar-1 (SBX-1)
constitutes a mid-course fire control radar based on a seagoing
semi-submersible vessel. The platform was developed by Boeing, as part
of the ground-based midcourse defence (GMD) component of the US
Ballistic Missile Defence System (BMDS). The GMD intercepts incoming
warheads.
The SBX vessel was transferred to the Military Sealift Command
(MSC) in December 2011. MSC operates and maintains the vessel, while
the Missile Defence Agency (MDA) is responsible for the x-band radar.
The SBX will be assigned with a limited test support role from fiscal
year 2013.
On 23 March 2012, SBX-1 sailed from Pearl Harbor to the Pacific region, ahead of North Korea's planned space launch.
Development history of the SBX-1


"On 23 March 2012, SBX-1 sailed from Pearl Harbor to the Pacific region, ahead of North Korea's planned space launch."In
August 2002, Boeing was awarded a $31m contract by MDA to oversee the
development of a new sea-based radar system for its BMDS. In January
2003, the US Government purchased a 50,000t semi-submersible seagoing
platform from Norwegian company Moss Maritime, for the integration of
radar system.
The platform was modified at the Keppel AMFELS
shipyard in Brownsville, Texas, to suit the radar outfit requirements,
under the supervision of the ground-based midcourse defence joint
programme office.
The assembly and installation of the x-band
radar on to the platform was completed in April 2005 by Kiewit Offshore
Services in Ingleside, Texas. The platform underwent additional
alterations at the Pearl Harbor Naval Shipyard in Honolulu, Hawaii.
In
July 2005, the vessel was officially named as the Sea-Based X-Band
Radar-1 (SBX-1) by the MDA. The SBX-1 underwent a series of sea trials
and exercises in the Gulf of Mexico and the Pacific Ocean, prior to its
service entry.
Design and features of the Sea-Based X-Band Radar-1 platform

SBX-1 is based on the modified fifth-generation semi-submersible platform of Moss Maritime.

"In 2002, Boeing was awarded a $31m contract by MDA to oversee development of a new sea-based radar system for its BMDS."The
twin-hulled vessel can withstand high winds and rigid sea conditions.
It houses x-band radar, a bridge, control rooms, accommodation units,
workspaces, storage spaces, a power generation area and a heli-deck.
The
SBX-1 platform is equipped with a command, control and communications
system, plus an in-flight interceptor communication system data
terminal.
The platform has the capacity to hold supplies and fuel
for 60 days. It also offers additional space for installation of new
modules.
The vessel has a length of 389ft, beam of 238ft and a
draft of 33ft. It can travel at a maximum speed of 9kt. It can
accommodate a crew of 87, including officers, civilians, civil service
mariners and contract mariners.
SBX-1 missions and US Ballistic Missile Defence System (BMDS) details

The
SBX-1, integrated with the BMDS system, provides tracking information
of incoming missiles and countermeasures discrimination for GMD
interceptor missiles, in order to destroy the threat missile outside the
Earth's atmosphere. It also protects the US and its allied forces from
potential missile attacks.
The radar performs cued search,
precision tracking, object discrimination and missile kill assessment.
The in-flight interceptor communication system data terminal transfers
commands from the GMD fire control system to the interceptor missile
during its engagement with the target missile.
X-band radar (XBR), built by Raytheon for Boeing

The
x-band radar, or XBR, was designed, built and tested by Raytheon for
Boeing, the prime contractor of the SBX-1 development. It is the most
advanced electro-mechanically steered phased array x-band radar derived
from the radar of the Aegis combat system.
The
radar beam is formed by the 45,000 transmit / receive modules, mounted
on an octagonal flat base. It can see an object similar to the size of a
baseball at a range of 2,500 miles. About 69,632 multisectional
circuits are used in the radar for transmitting, receiving and
amplifying signals.
The 18,000lbs radome measures 103ft in height
and 120ft in diameter. It is built with high-tech synthetic fabric
material to withstand wind speeds of more than 130mph. Air pressure
supports the flexible cover which surrounds the radar.
The vessel is also installed with small rigid radomes. Onboard equipment is powered by six 3.6MW generators.[/quote]
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/sea-based-x-band-radar-1-sbx-1/

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces

Post  proud kenyan on Sun Apr 21 2013, 22:02

now some guys decides he knows what the country needs to do:

http://www.nation.co.ke/Features/DN2/Lets-be-brave-and-cut-our-military-budget/-/957860/1754018/-/j9lfuoz/-/index.html

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Ole Sidai on Mon Apr 22 2013, 05:23

[quote="proud kenyan"]now some guys decides he knows what the country needs to do:

http://www.nation.co.ke/Features/DN2/Lets-be-brave-and-cut-our-military-budget/-/957860/1754018/-/j9lfuoz/-/index.html[/quote]

So let us cut the military budget. Not a judicious trim, not a light shearing of its fringes, but a proper disembowelling. Last year the bill from the military — boots, tank treads, and mortars included — stood at Sh64 billion.

All public expenditure should be justified. The army makes nothing and costs a fortune. It is a prime candidate for the chop. Its spending is ring-fenced and always ramped up. No other government can spend so much annually and not have anything to show for it.
Seriously, this ignorance is dangerous to not only KE national security but entire region! Is he aware of AMISOM and precisely why whole World had to deploy there? I suggest ON,Bulletman and other PR chaps seat him down to clean his cobwebs. It needs to be done quick enough before further contamination! He is dangerous.
Yes, to shrink budget is inevitable so do political salaries. Why not peg down political and government emoluments(except security services) to GDP and let it oscilates? How else can we gauge political leadership if not by growth in GDP? Shoulder to it should be new sources of revenue....expanding markets/regionalized economy. Alot can be done and will be done. However, security is paramount to economical growth/stability in our region. My 5 cents.
Go through the lists of management of government parastatals and corporations and you will see the title “Gen (Rtd)” fairly often. I have always wondered what talents career soldiers bring to these government parastatals. Perhaps they have some organisational acumen as a result of their time in the army that I miss. But why do private companies not snap them up after they hand over the epaulettes? Why is it that their acumen is only prized by companies whose board composition the government has a say in?

SERIOUSLY??? It takes decades of dedicated service with intense training/education both in national/international affairs to make it to a Gen. In my intake/134 cadets, 38 were graduates and the rest had University qualifications. This writer needs real education. Hope TEA members don't whine about it but locate him for some coffee....

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Guest on Mon Apr 22 2013, 11:09

What is actually dangerous is this absolute level of intolerance for civilian intellect in the oversight of military affairs, especially as expressed by a uniform on a KDF-sponsored forum ("Risasi's friend in America?" Really?), especially considering the "contamination" of society through the increasingly popular trend of military "participation" in civilian affairs, and especially considering the freedom of thought, freedom of speech and expression that no number of amendments to any number of instruments can ever take away again, whether or not the amendments are made after a lengthy parliamentary debate or after a tete-a-tete with the government printer.
Regardless of personal opinion, a rejoinder cannot be reduced to an ad hominem response lest it be mistaken for an abusive fallacy. And we have, throughout history, seen many a be-medalled man attempt that.
You shoot yourself in the foot, Ole Sidai.

Ole Sidai wrote:
proud kenyan wrote:now some guys decides he knows what the country needs to do:

http://www.nation.co.ke/Features/DN2/Lets-be-brave-and-cut-our-military-budget/-/957860/1754018/-/j9lfuoz/-/index.html
So let us cut the military budget. Not a judicious trim, not a light shearing of its fringes, but a proper disembowelling. Last year the bill from the military — boots, tank treads, and mortars included — stood at Sh64 billion.

All public expenditure should be justified. The army makes nothing and costs a fortune. It is a prime candidate for the chop. Its spending is ring-fenced and always ramped up. No other government can spend so much annually and not have anything to show for it.
Seriously, this ignorance is dangerous to not only KE national security but entire region! Is he aware of AMISOM and precisely why whole World had to deploy there? I suggest ON,Bulletman and other PR chaps seat him down to clean his cobwebs. It needs to be done quick enough before further contamination! He is dangerous.
Yes, to shrink budget is inevitable so do political salaries. Why not peg down political and government emoluments(except security services) to GDP and let it oscilates? How else can we gauge political leadership if not by growth in GDP? Shoulder to it should be new sources of revenue....expanding markets/regionalized economy. Alot can be done and will be done. However, security is paramount to economical growth/stability in our region. My 5 cents.
Go through the lists of management of government parastatals and corporations and you will see the title “Gen (Rtd)” fairly often. I have always wondered what talents career soldiers bring to these government parastatals. Perhaps they have some organisational acumen as a result of their time in the army that I miss. But why do private companies not snap them up after they hand over the epaulettes? Why is it that their acumen is only prized by companies whose board composition the government has a say in?

SERIOUSLY??? It takes decades of dedicated service with intense training/education both in national/international affairs to make it to a Gen. In my intake/134 cadets, 38 were graduates and the rest had University qualifications. This writer needs real education. Hope TEA members don't whine about it but locate him for some coffee....

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Guest on Mon Apr 22 2013, 11:36

An intellectual discourse that is informed of Gospel-like presumptive 'correctness' is always, in my opinion, a distasteful waste of time and effort. No doubt, there are opinions about everything as there are 'everything's - heck, even the determination of what is 'correct' could verily be relative. On a matter as engrossing, as expansive, as intricate as this that Waga Odongo writes about, how can anyone possible declare WWIV basing on such a shallow piece he has penned out? A piece whose only redeeming value is the laughable expose of the writer's incredible ignorance? It is entirely possible for some well-researched and founded article to have been written and which would have formed the basis for informative debate for + against the Status-Quo that is the subject-matter. Helas, I must disagree witcha on the manner Odongo takes to it, #Vitruvian.

The Election 2013 and its aftermath has fatally gutted the 'Evil Society' and their foreign puppet-masters. It is time to round up the Wagons and rediscover focus and energize new purpose. Such is the exercise that Waga Odongo is engaged in - quite as a management function, military or corporate. But we would be well advise to let matter settle down a-mite before we can seriously consider making war on the urgings of these Civil Society fellows Evil or Very Mad - they are formless and without distinctive definition presently.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Guest on Mon Apr 22 2013, 13:22

When does an intellectual discourse become an infallible gospel-like presumption and when is it an opinion, informed or otherwise? Who bears the presumptive cloak of infallibility to determine whether a discourse is one or the other? And if each person individually, then is that not merely an opinion, as likely uninformed as not?
In any case, it is inconsequential to my comment above. I came neither in favour of nor against the Wag's overtures. I am simply irked by the near-frantic character assassination of anyone with the audacity to think outside the military box. Apart from a cursory dismissal of the writer, there is absolutely no counter-argument to what he has said. Just panic.
Merely my opinion.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Spartan on Mon Apr 22 2013, 14:12

Vitruvian wrote:What is actually dangerous is this absolute level of intolerance for civilian intellect in the oversight of military affairs, especially as expressed by a uniform on a KDF-sponsored forum ("Risasi's friend in America?" Really?), especially considering the "contamination" of society through the increasingly popular trend of military "participation" in civilian affairs, and especially considering the freedom of thought, freedom of speech and expression that no number of amendments to any number of instruments can ever take away again, whether or not the amendments are made after a lengthy parliamentary debate or after a tete-a-tete with the government printer.
Regardless of personal opinion, a rejoinder cannot be reduced to an ad hominem response lest it be mistaken for an abusive fallacy. And we have, throughout history, seen many a be-medalled man attempt that.
You shoot yourself in the foot, Ole Sidai.


Buddy, ulikuwa wapi?. We miss your intellectual input here. That said, I think Kenya's defence expenditure usually means both internal security (police) expenditure and military while for other countries internal security expenditure is usually different from military expenditure.

Now, on civilian overlordship over the military, we all agree that's what supposed to be the case, at least that's what I and thousands of others were taught. However, the article seemed to suggest that the army is dispensable, and that peace can exist with minimal defence spending. That is liberal pacifism for lack of a better word. Even Switzerland, a peace-loving 'neutral' country spends $3bn a year on it's army. The problem with being weak or being perceived as such is that you invite bullies - Idi Amin was tempted to annex western Kenya because, at the time, the Uganda army was stronger than the Kenya army, at least equipment-wise.

Secondly, strong armies support foreign policy which is often converted into tenders and contracts. Kenya is a leader in this region, it can't afford to be seen to be carrying no 'stick'. Tanzania and South African companies will win DRC contracts as a result of their deployment of their troops there. It's therefore not true that armies only consume.

Kenyan military expenditure is 2% of GDP or thereabouts, a very healthy percentage. Why not tackle the 98% first. Real 'bravery' would be cutting the salaries of civil servants (the highest in the region) who don't put their lives on the line, who are in bed or bars by 10pm. Ama?

Lastly, civilian oversight is good and that's what the whole idea was from the beginning. But the army is a guarantor of the state and it has knowledge, skills, resources and the willingness to die for the rest of the country. They should be respected for that. So politicians and civil society organisations wanting to make a living and political points can not be allowed unlimited say on how the army is run.

Trimming army resources is tantamount to trimming the army, and trimming the army can only be done after assessing security needs of the country, which is the preserve of the army generals with the help of intelligence, or people privy to such info, like the C-i-C. Since the writer is none of the above, I posit that he isn't qualified to talk about what he was saying.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Guest on Mon Apr 22 2013, 15:56

In fact, brother Spartan, I am (for the most part) with you on this one. As I noted in my response above, I was non-commital regarding the substance of the article. What I found unpalatable was the Wag's crucifixion without constructive input. Simply dismissing him as - effectively - a blithering idiot and hoping to kill any argument by such means is not doing justice to a mind that easily relegates everyone here, including your's truly, to intellectual insignificance (and probably one of the reasons why I now frequent this forum by the purest of chance). I am somewhat wary of soldiery that adopts the bushesque "you're either with us or you're against us" paradigm. It denies the recourse of human fallibility. You mentioned Idi Amin...
In addition, anyone who takes the Wag's articles prima facie should probably stick to the sports pages. The Wag's real messages are cleverly subliminal.

Spartan wrote:
Vitruvian wrote:What is actually dangerous is this absolute level of intolerance for civilian intellect in the oversight of military affairs, especially as expressed by a uniform on a KDF-sponsored forum ("Risasi's friend in America?" Really?), especially considering the "contamination" of society through the increasingly popular trend of military "participation" in civilian affairs, and especially considering the freedom of thought, freedom of speech and expression that no number of amendments to any number of instruments can ever take away again, whether or not the amendments are made after a lengthy parliamentary debate or after a tete-a-tete with the government printer.
Regardless of personal opinion, a rejoinder cannot be reduced to an ad hominem response lest it be mistaken for an abusive fallacy. And we have, throughout history, seen many a be-medalled man attempt that.
You shoot yourself in the foot, Ole Sidai.


Buddy, ulikuwa wapi?. We miss your intellectual input here. That said, I think Kenya's defence expenditure usually means both internal security (police) expenditure and military while for other countries internal security expenditure is usually different from military expenditure.

Now, on civilian overlordship over the military, we all agree that's what supposed to be the case, at least that's what I and thousands of others were taught. However, the article seemed to suggest that the army is dispensable, and that peace can exist with minimal defence spending. That is liberal pacifism for lack of a better word. Even Switzerland, a peace-loving 'neutral' country spends $3bn a year on it's army. The problem with being weak or being perceived as such is that you invite bullies - Idi Amin was tempted to annex western Kenya because, at the time, the Uganda army was stronger than the Kenya army, at least equipment-wise.

Secondly, strong armies support foreign policy which is often converted into tenders and contracts. Kenya is a leader in this region, it can't afford to be seen to be carrying no 'stick'. Tanzania and South African companies will win DRC contracts as a result of their deployment of their troops there. It's therefore not true that armies only consume.

Kenyan military expenditure is 2% of GDP or thereabouts, a very healthy percentage. Why not tackle the 98% first. Real 'bravery' would be cutting the salaries of civil servants (the highest in the region) who don't put their lives on the line, who are in bed or bars by 10pm. Ama?

Lastly, civilian oversight is good and that's what the whole idea was from the beginning. But the army is a guarantor of the state and it has knowledge, skills, resources and the willingness to die for the rest of the country. They should be respected for that. So politicians and civil society organisations wanting to make a living and political points can not be allowed unlimited say on how the army is run.

Trimming army resources is tantamount to trimming the army, and trimming the army can only be done after assessing security needs of the country, which is the preserve of the army generals with the help of intelligence, or people privy to such info, like the C-i-C. Since the writer is none of the above, I posit that he isn't qualified to talk about what he was saying.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  MWAURA on Mon Apr 22 2013, 16:04

[quote="Ole Sidai"]
proud kenyan wrote:now some guys decides he knows what the country needs to do:

http://www.nation.co.ke/Features/DN2/Lets-be-brave-and-cut-our-military-budget/-/957860/1754018/-/j9lfuoz/-/index.html[/quote]

So let us cut the military budget. Not a judicious trim, not a light shearing of its fringes, but a proper disembowelling. Last year the bill from the military — boots, tank treads, and mortars included — stood at Sh64 billion.

All public expenditure should be justified. The army makes nothing and costs a fortune. It is a prime candidate for the chop. Its spending is ring-fenced and always ramped up. No other government can spend so much annually and not have anything to show for it.
Seriously, this ignorance is dangerous to not only KE national security but entire region! Is he aware of AMISOM and precisely why whole World had to deploy there? I suggest ON,Bulletman and other PR chaps seat him down to clean his cobwebs. It needs to be done quick enough before further contamination! He is dangerous.
Yes, to shrink budget is inevitable so do political salaries. Why not peg down political and government emoluments(except security services) to GDP and let it oscilates? How else can we gauge political leadership if not by growth in GDP? Shoulder to it should be new sources of revenue....expanding markets/regionalized economy. Alot can be done and will be done. However, security is paramount to economical growth/stability in our region. My 5 cents.
Go through the lists of management of government parastatals and corporations and you will see the title “Gen (Rtd)” fairly often. I have always wondered what talents career soldiers bring to these government parastatals. Perhaps they have some organisational acumen as a result of their time in the army that I miss. But why do private companies not snap them up after they hand over the epaulettes? Why is it that their acumen is only prized by companies whose board composition the government has a say in?

SERIOUSLY??? It takes decades of dedicated service with intense training/education both in national/international affairs to make it to a Gen. In my intake/134 cadets, 38 were graduates and the rest had University qualifications. This writer needs real education. Hope TEA members don't whine about it but locate him for some coffee....
Nothing new here. Simply the kind of mental blankness buttressed by conceit our media/civil society types are famous for. Even if you sat him, down explaining the roles and functions of the army/navy/airforce within an expanded Kenyana it would be a task as useless as talking to a tree.
At least those whose function it is to know such things do know!

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  mchoraji on Mon Apr 22 2013, 16:17

Spartan wrote: Buddy, ulikuwa wapi?. We miss your intellectual input here. That said, I think Kenya's defence expenditure usually means both internal security (police) expenditure and military while for other countries internal security expenditure is usually different from military expenditure.

today is one of those days the forum gets hot n am loving it.I wont say much but @ Spartan kenya's defence & internal security budgets are usually different.the military last time got Ksh64billion while police got over Ksh50billion.that said, @ Vitruvian has a point, the wag's articles always are in a bit of jest.but we shouldn't worry about people like the wag for we know the budget will not be reduced any time soon.the military is modernizing & looking further than our borders than ever before.there's a proverb in my language 'the enemy pounces & over-runs when the weapons have been discarded'. if our military is neglected, should we need it in an emergency in the future, it wont be able to perform it's tasks.bottom-line? patia jeshi letu tukufu pesa!

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces

Post  proud kenyan on Mon Apr 22 2013, 18:04

ole Nkarei wrote:An intellectual discourse that is informed of Gospel-like presumptive 'correctness' is always, in my opinion, a distasteful waste of time and effort. No doubt, there are opinions about everything as there are 'everything's - heck, even the determination of what is 'correct' could verily be relative. On a matter as engrossing, as expansive, as intricate as this that Waga Odongo writes about, how can anyone possible declare WWIV basing on such a shallow piece he has penned out? A piece whose only redeeming value is the laughable expose of the writer's incredible ignorance? It is entirely possible for some well-researched and founded article to have been written and which would have formed the basis for informative debate for + against the Status-Quo that is the subject-matter. Helas, I must disagree witcha on the manner Odongo takes to it, #Vitruvian.

The Election 2013 and its aftermath has fatally gutted the 'Evil Society' and their foreign puppet-masters. It is time to round up the Wagons and rediscover focus and energize new purpose. Such is the exercise that Waga Odongo is engaged in - quite as a management function, military or corporate. But we would be well advise to let matter settle down a-mite before we can seriously consider making war on the urgings of these Civil Society fellows Evil or Very Mad - they are formless and without distinctive definition presently.

if the writer of that piece were somewhere in Gedo, the amount of firepower to land on him would be equivalent to using a hammer to kill a mosquito,american style, what with ON and his special team,sidai spoiling for a fight and risasi all too eager to show where the funds he wants diverted elsewhere went to, maybe spartan and vivutrian and some sector 1 occupants angling for the ringside seats.
you guys have even more heart than i do, i only read two paragraphs that summarised his thinking: you want to own a 4D tv screen buy it, and give little regard to the poorly constructed barbed wire fence surrounding your home or lack of one, and be guaranteed to possess it for the rest of your lifetime without the sticky fingers of your locality deciding to show your new possession a disappearance trick or two.a good example at how these days common sense is not that common.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Guest on Mon Apr 22 2013, 18:41

What IS civil society? For the uninitiated - if you're not military or other government, or (big) business, you're civil society. That's the definition of you, period. You have no way out of civil society except by joining government or business. You may hate it, but then you hate yourself. And your mum, your dad, your family, your community, your society. Of course, you could get out of it the easy way by joining one of the arms of government or the hard way by starting a successful business. Still, when you go home in the evening, you're "civil society," and so are your spouse and kids.
Epithets such as "evil society" are faux and divisive. They create an enemy within where there is none, because there is no (longer an) enemy without. Quite typical. And every commissioned officer at this forum is well versed in this. "Civvies" may not be as well versed, which is why the working uniforms at this forum (as opposed to those who merely visit out of interest) find is so easy to influence opinion. Trumpet a war cry to rally the troops, single out the enemy, then step aside whilst society does the rest. Clean hands, no involvement, no ICC and certainly no Supreme Court. The tagging of an internal enemy in the perceived absence of a foreign one is a very totalitarian invention, characteristic to fascism and practical communism.
Next time we're bitching about civil society, perhaps we ought to consider what it actually is. "Them" is not a definition.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Guest on Mon Apr 22 2013, 18:43

You may have a point. Let's just kill him. That will make us all proud Kenyans.

proud kenyan wrote:
ole Nkarei wrote:An intellectual discourse that is informed of Gospel-like presumptive 'correctness' is always, in my opinion, a distasteful waste of time and effort. No doubt, there are opinions about everything as there are 'everything's - heck, even the determination of what is 'correct' could verily be relative. On a matter as engrossing, as expansive, as intricate as this that Waga Odongo writes about, how can anyone possible declare WWIV basing on such a shallow piece he has penned out? A piece whose only redeeming value is the laughable expose of the writer's incredible ignorance? It is entirely possible for some well-researched and founded article to have been written and which would have formed the basis for informative debate for + against the Status-Quo that is the subject-matter. Helas, I must disagree witcha on the manner Odongo takes to it, #Vitruvian.

The Election 2013 and its aftermath has fatally gutted the 'Evil Society' and their foreign puppet-masters. It is time to round up the Wagons and rediscover focus and energize new purpose. Such is the exercise that Waga Odongo is engaged in - quite as a management function, military or corporate. But we would be well advise to let matter settle down a-mite before we can seriously consider making war on the urgings of these Civil Society fellows Evil or Very Mad - they are formless and without distinctive definition presently.

if the writer of that piece were somewhere in Gedo, the amount of firepower to land on him would be equivalent to using a hammer to kill a mosquito,american style, what with ON and his special team,sidai spoiling for a fight and risasi all too eager to show where the funds he wants diverted elsewhere went to, maybe spartan and vivutrian and some sector 1 occupants angling for the ringside seats.
you guys have even more heart than i do, i only read two paragraphs that summarised his thinking: you want to own a 4D tv screen buy it, and give little regard to the poorly constructed barbed wire fence surrounding your home or lack of one, and be guaranteed to possess it for the rest of your lifetime without the sticky fingers of your locality deciding to show your new possession a disappearance trick or two.a good example at how these days common sense is not that common.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Spartan on Mon Apr 22 2013, 21:20

Vitruvian wrote:What IS civil society? For the uninitiated - if you're not military or other government, or (big) business, you're civil society. That's the definition of you, period. You have no way out of civil society except by joining government or business. You may hate it, but then you hate yourself. And your mum, your dad..

The thing with civil society is that they have this approach to problem-solving that assumes that we can all live in a land of daisies if we all came together, and most importantly, they are foreign-funded. People and organisations tend to keep on the straight and narrow spelt out by their funders. You will therefore understand ON's and other uniforms' double take on whatever these guys espouse. If they had their way, the whole of Africa would have no army because we have so many poor people that need to be taken care of.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Guest on Mon Apr 22 2013, 22:45

It could well be my slow day or the frigid North Kivu airs have slowed down my congitative abilities. But I will be dammed if I can find any relationships of the slightest in #Vitrivian's treatise with any of the post, mine and of other forumners, which he so obviously took objections to. Consequently I am lost as to what response would be needful.

But re-reading my criticism of Waga Odongo's nonsensical blitherings I find that my dismissal was neither casually flippant as intimated by #Vitrivian, and nor without objectivity. Nowhere do I indicate a reluctance to examination of the Military (I aint spokesman for KDF!) - just the opposite that reasoned and illuminated discourse would have ensued from a better researched and referenced article. I round off by lamenting the decapitated-head status of "Evil Society" that has resulted in their recent headless-chicken prancing-about antics before a bemused international audience. (Said without apologies nor regret. And in full anticipation of further such entertainment until these comedians should refocus and redefine themselves within these changed circumstances!).

What #Vitruvian would have us accept is the romanticized idealistic definitions of Civil Society. Which of course holds little realism in Kenya's openly promiscuous, buccaneering and politically-amoral "evil society". Do they represent anyone but their foreign masters and themselves? Just ask in any village.

"A life unexamined is not worthy living" - Socrates said. Debate and write all one wants about the Military, and Goat-herding in Namanga. But without insulting the intelligence and assaulting the eyes of the readership in shallow and thinly camouflaged foreign-germinated activism that has zero value to the Homeland. Such as the nonsensical blitherings of Waga Odongo.

Hiyo tuu!
Vitruvian wrote:In fact, brother Spartan, I am (for the most part) with you on this one. As I noted in my response above, I was non-commital regarding the substance of the article. What I found unpalatable was the Wag's crucifixion without constructive input. Simply dismissing him as - effectively - a blithering idiot and hoping to kill any argument by such means is not doing justice to a mind that easily relegates everyone here, including your's truly, to intellectual insignificance (and probably one of the reasons why I now frequent this forum by the purest of chance). I am somewhat wary of soldiery that adopts the bushesque "you're either with us or you're against us" paradigm. It denies the recourse of human fallibility. You mentioned Idi Amin...
In addition, anyone who takes the Wag's articles prima facie should probably stick to the sports pages. The Wag's real messages are cleverly subliminal.

Spartan wrote:
Vitruvian wrote:What is actually dangerous is this absolute level of intolerance for civilian intellect in the oversight of military affairs, especially as expressed by a uniform on a KDF-sponsored forum ("Risasi's friend in America?" Really?), especially considering the "contamination" of society through the increasingly popular trend of military "participation" in civilian affairs, and especially considering the freedom of thought, freedom of speech and expression that no number of amendments to any number of instruments can ever take away again, whether or not the amendments are made after a lengthy parliamentary debate or after a tete-a-tete with the government printer.
Regardless of personal opinion, a rejoinder cannot be reduced to an ad hominem response lest it be mistaken for an abusive fallacy. And we have, throughout history, seen many a be-medalled man attempt that.
You shoot yourself in the foot, Ole Sidai.





Buddy, ulikuwa wapi?. We miss your intellectual input here. That said, I think Kenya's defence expenditure usually means both internal security (police) expenditure and military while for other countries internal security expenditure is usually different from military expenditure.

Now, on civilian overlordship over the military, we all agree that's what supposed to be the case, at least that's what I and thousands of others were taught. However, the article seemed to suggest that the army is dispensable, and that peace can exist with minimal defence spending. That is liberal pacifism for lack of a better word. Even Switzerland, a peace-loving 'neutral' country spends $3bn a year on it's army. The problem with being weak or being perceived as such is that you invite bullies - Idi Amin was tempted to annex western Kenya because, at the time, the Uganda army was stronger than the Kenya army, at least equipment-wise.

Secondly, strong armies support foreign policy which is often converted into tenders and contracts. Kenya is a leader in this region, it can't afford to be seen to be carrying no 'stick'. Tanzania and South African companies will win DRC contracts as a result of their deployment of their troops there. It's therefore not true that armies only consume.

Kenyan military expenditure is 2% of GDP or thereabouts, a very healthy percentage. Why not tackle the 98% first. Real 'bravery' would be cutting the salaries of civil servants (the highest in the region) who don't put their lives on the line, who are in bed or bars by 10pm. Ama?

Lastly, civilian oversight is good and that's what the whole idea was from the beginning. But the army is a guarantor of the state and it has knowledge, skills, resources and the willingness to die for the rest of the country. They should be respected for that. So politicians and civil society organisations wanting to make a living and political points can not be allowed unlimited say on how the army is run.

Trimming army resources is tantamount to trimming the army, and trimming the army can only be done after assessing security needs of the country, which is the preserve of the army generals with the help of intelligence, or people privy to such info, like the C-i-C. Since the writer is none of the above, I posit that he isn't qualified to talk about what he was saying.

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Re:civil society stubbornness

Post  proud kenyan on Tue Apr 23 2013, 00:58

Spartan wrote:
Vitruvian wrote:What IS civil society? For the uninitiated - if you're not military or other government, or (big) business, you're civil society. That's the definition of you, period. You have no way out of civil society except by joining government or business. You may hate it, but then you hate yourself. And your mum, your dad..

The thing with civil society is that they have this approach to problem-solving that assumes that we can all live in a land of daisies if we all came together, and most importantly, they are foreign-funded. People and organisations tend to keep on the straight and narrow spelt out by their funders. You will therefore understand ON's and other uniforms' double take on whatever these guys espouse. If they had their way, the whole of Africa would have no army because we have so many poor people that need to be taken care of.

some civil society groups are the main cause of negative reporting in Africa, as some researcher(she actually researched,maybe the wag should learn the meaning of the word research) found out
http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/2013/04/kenyan-takes-on-western-media-for-negative-coverage-on-africa/

some civil society groups even have the audacity and bad behaviour to open a site and post some propaganda in the name of evidence, then cry foul when the authorities decide to want to know who it is that funds them..soiling the name of their country in the name of fighting for rights..i once had a friend over from taiwan, what she saw and what she had seen on the news according to her were two parallel universes, but in the same location this side of the sahara.i now desist from commenting more.
@ vitruvian i wasnt suggesting he be killed physically, but intelligently..one mind versus another inferior mind(i.e.waga)

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Uzi on Tue Apr 23 2013, 06:56

One needs a dictionary to hang out with some of u guys! eish

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Guest on Tue Apr 23 2013, 13:15

There is little to do in the sheet-rain adding to the misery of damp and cold here, but to catch up on some reading and Digital flossing. Patience and good manners thinning considerably.

Which gives me drive to express my astonishment at the gist and tone of this post below which is a disfigurement (in my view, my rght to express it with or without Uniform) of the rights and obligations of self-examination. Used to be a time when barely-grown English-speaking University graduates expressed their pseudo-intellectual snotty superiority over the Kenyan Populace with very poorly crafted clichés borrowed from popular international themes, such as "Temokracy" "Rule of Law" "Civil Rights" "Gud governance" etc

And amongst these, some hurtful denigrating stereotyping of every man-and-woman in Uniform. Those chaps eventually found purposes and gravitas in what is today euphemistically termed as "Civil Society" from where they bludgeoned, through methods unethical and unconscionable, their way onto the National Platform. But still the same petty, snotty, pseudo-intellectuals slinging-about heavy thematic slogans of popular appeal - only this time / year, not to an enthralled, ignorant, illiterate, uninformed Kenyan Populace; the election whitewash is poignant indication of just how low "Evil Society" has fallen in Kenya. This is the so-called "consciousness of our Society" such as is idealistically defined by its apologists and sponsors, that blunders around the Kenyan landscapes shooting off it mouth in frequently intemperate fashion, as it scrambles for relevance and purpose.

Atii Waga Odongo slings such "cleverly sublimal" as to put kila mtu hapa into the pale! Aiseei!


Vitruvian wrote:In fact, brother Spartan, I am (for the most part) with you on this one. As I noted in my response above, I was non-commital regarding the substance of the article. What I found unpalatable was the Wag's crucifixion without constructive input. Simply dismissing him as - effectively - a blithering idiot and hoping to kill any argument by such means is not doing justice to a mind that easily relegates everyone here, including your's truly, to intellectual insignificance (and probably one of the reasons why I now frequent this forum by the purest of chance). I am somewhat wary of soldiery that adopts the bushesque "you're either with us or you're against us" paradigm. It denies the recourse of human fallibility. You mentioned Idi Amin...
In addition, anyone who takes the Wag's articles prima facie should probably stick to the sports pages. The Wag's real messages are cleverly subliminal.

Spartan wrote:
Vitruvian wrote:What is actually dangerous is this absolute level of intolerance for civilian intellect in the oversight of military affairs, especially as expressed by a uniform on a KDF-sponsored forum ("Risasi's friend in America?" Really?), especially considering the "contamination" of society through the increasingly popular trend of military "participation" in civilian affairs, and especially considering the freedom of thought, freedom of speech and expression that no number of amendments to any number of instruments can ever take away again, whether or not the amendments are made after a lengthy parliamentary debate or after a tete-a-tete with the government printer.
Regardless of personal opinion, a rejoinder cannot be reduced to an ad hominem response lest it be mistaken for an abusive fallacy. And we have, throughout history, seen many a be-medalled man attempt that.
You shoot yourself in the foot, Ole Sidai.



Buddy, ulikuwa wapi?. We miss your intellectual input here. That said, I think Kenya's defence expenditure usually means both internal security (police) expenditure and military while for other countries internal security expenditure is usually different from military expenditure.

Now, on civilian overlordship over the military, we all agree that's what supposed to be the case, at least that's what I and thousands of others were taught. However, the article seemed to suggest that the army is dispensable, and that peace can exist with minimal defence spending. That is liberal pacifism for lack of a better word. Even Switzerland, a peace-loving 'neutral' country spends $3bn a year on it's army. The problem with being weak or being perceived as such is that you invite bullies - Idi Amin was tempted to annex western Kenya because, at the time, the Uganda army was stronger than the Kenya army, at least equipment-wise.

Secondly, strong armies support foreign policy which is often converted into tenders and contracts. Kenya is a leader in this region, it can't afford to be seen to be carrying no 'stick'. Tanzania and South African companies will win DRC contracts as a result of their deployment of their troops there. It's therefore not true that armies only consume.

Kenyan military expenditure is 2% of GDP or thereabouts, a very healthy percentage. Why not tackle the 98% first. Real 'bravery' would be cutting the salaries of civil servants (the highest in the region) who don't put their lives on the line, who are in bed or bars by 10pm. Ama?

Lastly, civilian oversight is good and that's what the whole idea was from the beginning. But the army is a guarantor of the state and it has knowledge, skills, resources and the willingness to die for the rest of the country. They should be respected for that. So politicians and civil society organisations wanting to make a living and political points can not be allowed unlimited say on how the army is run.

Trimming army resources is tantamount to trimming the army, and trimming the army can only be done after assessing security needs of the country, which is the preserve of the army generals with the help of intelligence, or people privy to such info, like the C-i-C. Since the writer is none of the above, I posit that he isn't qualified to talk about what he was saying.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Kobooz on Tue Apr 23 2013, 16:41

It is a fact that civil society/activists put on a permanent anti-government tag. in their view u better have Mt. Elgon in permanent chaos & just keep blaming the government. when government acts they want sanctions against kdf! when 42 police officers die in baragoi or 10 in msa civil society heres nothing sees nothing. Let us be honest too much democracy is not good! if Rwanda allowed activism there wld hav been another genocide by now yet today we admire the country even with their downsides

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Fabrizio on Tue Apr 23 2013, 19:22

I find this forum more interesting and enlightening when netters are discussing strictly military matters. When members delve into areas outside their domain of competence, it shows and its not flattering.

Our Ugandan brothers like Spartan, Aggressor-One etc many not quite grasp it. But in the context of Kenya's politics, everything(including wordy sanctimonious ramblings about imperialism etc) boils down to the tribe.

Lets keep it out of here by focusing less on civilian matters, especially in Kenya.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Spartan on Tue Apr 23 2013, 21:20

Fabrizio wrote:I find this forum more interesting and enlightening when netters are discussing strictly military matters. When members delve into areas outside their domain of competence, it shows and its not flattering.

Our Ugandan brothers like Spartan, Aggressor-One etc many not quite grasp it. But in the context of Kenya's politics, everything(including wordy sanctimonious ramblings about imperialism etc) boils down to the tribe.

Lets keep it out of here by focusing less on civilian matters, especially in Kenya.

I beg to differ, buddy. The gist of Wanga Odongo's article was military, not political or tribal. Reducing defence expenditure in Kenya could mean that Uganda bares more of the brunt of monitoring the coss-border cattle rustling, or the withdrawal of the Kenyan navy from AMISOM, and in both cases we stand to lose more in troops and treasure.

I actually happen to think that the 'tribal' aspect of Kenyans is overhyped. To those of us looking in from the outside, Kenyans seem unanimous in their love for their country. Granted, the Kikuyus, Kamba and Meru seem to bond easily with each other than with, say, the Luo while abroad in countries like Uganda - they all come across to us, and want us to know, that they are Kenyans first and foremost. Besides, when Kikuyus and Luo face off in the environs of the Kibera slum, the railway to Uganda is affected, making us the third stakeholder.

I therefore beg for the patience and indulgence of the non-uniforms here when, once in a while, we venture into what we consider geopolitical matters that have a military bearing, although the military implications may not be obvious to all on first take.

This forum provides an unofficial bridge between uniforms and non-uniforms across this region to share and learn from each other - and the 'learning from each other' street must be two way. Non-uniforms must learn from uniforms and vice-versa, so the notion that we should just stick to military issues doesn't arise. This is the East African Userboard, not the 'East African Military Userboard', ama?. May be more senior minds on this site could come forward and guide us.

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  Guest on Tue Apr 23 2013, 22:28

Exactly the thing #Spartan. More so that the subject under discussion here is a poorly-researched and un-referenced "opinion" piece about the fuctionality and expense of the Military - not Politics of CoRD/TNA or Tribes/Clans in Kenya! There is also the little matter of the usual insulting stereotyping of the Officer Corps inbyhe same shifty piece by Waga Odongo.

As far as I can tell, "Sanctimony" is a terminology without universal application. The obvious nexus between Old and New Colonialism is a fiction to the most uninformed fellow, I think.

It amuses me, as I am certain it must #Spartan and brother-Uniforms across the border, when intellectual interactions between civilians and Uniforms (in America, Europe, even so) most often results in ludicrous belligerence that the uniforms effortlessly break out of their civilians-designed stereotyped moulds. Now, someone here suggests that discourse outside Guns and Bayonets is painfully out of the competences of Uniforms! Seeming to suggest restricting Uniforms to the "run-and-fetch" mould of colonial times! Eiish, bana. This is Kenyana 2013, aiseei!

Fabrizio wrote:I find this forum more interesting and enlightening when netters are discussing strictly military matters. When members delve into areas outside their domain of competence, it shows and its not flattering.

Our Ugandan brothers like Spartan, Aggressor-One etc many not quite grasp it. But in the context of Kenya's politics, everything(including wordy sanctimonious ramblings about imperialism etc) boils down to the tribe.

Lets keep it out of here by focusing less on civilian matters, especially in Kenya.

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ETHIOPIAN SOMALIA TROOP WITHDRAWAL

Post  mchoraji on Thu Apr 25 2013, 08:22

PM Hailemariam Desalegn on Tuesday announced the full withdrawal of Ethiopian troops from Somalia will take place soon.a day later, he flew to Nairobi on a one day official visit.I think the Ethiopian planned withdrawal may have necessitated the Nbo visit.Ethiopian troops are mainly in Sector 2 which has Kenya as the main player & now Sierra Leone the other TCC.like happened when Ethiopia withdrew from Hudur, any more troop pull-out may lead to Al-shabab filling the void.I hope something that will ensure Al-shabab doesn't take advantage of the planned move was worked out yesterday.Thus said it has been quite a big sacrifice by the Ethiopians.kudos!

http://shabelle.net/ethiopia-says-preparing-to-pull-troops-out-of-somalia/


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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

Post  mchoraji on Thu Apr 25 2013, 09:08

Our new Pan-African posture getting more pronounced.glad our African brethren standing with us all the way.in the end the imperialists will back down.

http://www.africareview.com//News/AU-chief-Dlamini-Zuma-visits-Kenya/-/979180/1757294/-/fs56ur/-/index.html?relative=true

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Kismayu tense as Hiraale arrives with large militia force

Post  mogen on Thu Apr 25 2013, 15:19

On Twitter Farah Jama, @Shillinson wrote:

wrote:Somali Gov dispatched dreaded warlord to Kismayo. Bare Hiiraale entered kismayo by sea last night.Reports say that he was appointed governor

#Kismayo is tense today when former warlord Barre Hiraale was seen in the city with clan militia. Hiraale led Juba valley alliance faction

Is he ready to wage war against Jubbaland initiative?

Who else is supporting him besides Mogadishu? How did he get his troops in by sea?
ON are you there?

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Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

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