Kenya Defence Force

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  jasiri on Thu Feb 03 2011, 20:36

Flying Crane wrote:@makonge I would like to see a supporting link. jst like whaty ur friend posted on the ugandan page

Flying Crane if my memory serves me right, sisal makonge said that this was hush hush to avoid undue interest from PSC Defence. Usijali in a year's time you'll see them flying around west pokot and that would be a link enough.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Sisal Makonge on Fri Feb 04 2011, 23:54

Flying Crane wrote:@makonge I would like to see a supporting link. jst like whaty ur friend posted on the ugandan page

The CH47 are sold with foreign military sale program called CHAPS
http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/news/General_News/General_Chinook_News.html

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Balozi on Mon Feb 07 2011, 20:35

@Risasi in you blog you talked about Kenya having a sidewinder that can attack from any side. This reduces the unnecessary maneuvers during dog fights. But from what I know the sidewinder is a heat seeking missile which needs the exhaust of aircraft to engage its target. i.e attacking from behind


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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Risasi on Tue Feb 08 2011, 19:04

Balozi wrote:@Risasi in you blog you talked about Kenya having a sidewinder that can attack from any side. This reduces the unnecessary maneuvers during dog fights. But from what I know the sidewinder is a heat seeking missile which needs the exhaust of aircraft to engage its target. i.e attacking from behind


There different types of sidewinders the one you’re talking of are basic models. The sidewinder that I talked about is a newer advance model. It only needs the heat radiated by the body of the air craft engage. Therefore you don’t need to circle your enemy from behind to where the engines are in order to shoot him down.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Flying Crane on Wed Feb 09 2011, 20:43

When the Su30 arrive our air force will have BvR capabilities. We wouldn,t need WII dog fight maneuvers.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Olekoima on Thu Feb 10 2011, 07:45

Flying Crane wrote:When the Su30 arrive our air force will have BvR capabilities. We wouldn,t need WII dog fight maneuvers.

Mmh, when do you expect them? Were they meant for a war with Kenya? You seem to imply that.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  mJESHI mMOJA on Thu Feb 10 2011, 14:31

BvR was so safe and sound then advance dog fighting missile would,t
Be in production

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Balozi on Thu Feb 10 2011, 18:57

mJESHI mMOJA wrote:BvR was so safe and sound then advance dog fighting missile would,t
Be in production

i think u mean short range missles not advance dog fight missle

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  jasiri on Thu Feb 10 2011, 21:32

Flying Crane wrote:When the Su30 arrive our air force will have BvR capabilities. We wouldn,t need WII dog fight maneuvers.
Mr. Crane, in air wars dogfights are inevitable. In the gulf war 1, American F-15 eagles, BVR capable aircraft, found them selves on numerous occcasions in a perfect ogfight witth Iraqi MiG's and Sukhoi's. In spite of it being BVR capable, the Sukhoi su 30 Mk2-the version you are getting- has been fine tuned for super maneuverability. This is because the Russian, and all aviators, know that in air combat a dogfight is inevitable. Note that stealth aircraft like the F-22, PAK-FA and the J-20(going by it's huge wing area and canards) are optimised for dogfights.

Separatelly @ Risasi, i see our M-117 pilots are logging in serious flight hours, esp at night.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  mJESHI mMOJA on Fri Feb 11 2011, 08:23

Balozi wrote:
mJESHI mMOJA wrote:BvR was so safe and sound then advance dog fighting missile would,t
Be in production

i think u mean short range missles not advance dog fight missle


@balozi. I mean what I say. Dogfighting missles are short range air to air missiles while BvR missiles are long range air to air missiles. In my post above, I was point out that the development of advance Dog fighting (short range) missiles is as active as BvR missiles (long range). This indicates that short-range missiles still have importance places in modern air combat.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  mzalendo on Fri Feb 11 2011, 13:56

@risasi r u risasi lead or risasi bullet. Very Happy
anyway I think that that type of Technology is still advance and it will be out of reach for third world countries. ARAAM is the missile

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Olekoima on Fri Feb 11 2011, 16:54

mzalendo wrote:@risasi r u risasi lead or risasi bullet. Very Happy
anyway I think that that type of Technology is still advance and it will be out of reach for third world countries. ARAAM is the missile

Nothing is beyond reach my friend. If Uganda and Ethiopia can afford 4th generation fighters, what makes you think that they can't attempt to posses these missiles as well. My take is that regimes in third world countries will do anything to lay their hands on anything they desire even if it means we all die of starvation. Just look at poor Burma, Algeria and Morocco. See their type of weaponry. With these they can even challenge many countries in the developed world. Ultimately it is for us Africans to make peace with ourselves, pay attention to development and avoid being markets for these costly arsenals. Unfortunately it is these tyrants who are in power who often make decisions for us. We need to run them out of town as happened in Tunisia.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  mzalendo on Fri Feb 11 2011, 22:02

@Olekoima ya you are correct bt the technogy is still not for sell.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Risasi on Sat Feb 12 2011, 09:26

@mzalendo I am Risasi the Lead bullet. Very Happy

@blog Based on what we are discussing coincidentally a week the F-22 engaged in a Dogfight with a Mirage and the F-22 was shot down. This was a real dog fight the only thing that didn’t happen was launching an air to air missile or firing the gun. Dog fights heavily depends on the pilots I.Q, stamina and training..

For those who would like a link to such a incident, it unlikely that you would find one at this moment, cause it’s still privileged, fresh and embarrassing news, but give it time and it will appear.

Dogfight are here to stay and they are the most dreaded scenarios in air combat which so ever type of aircraft you are flying.

Insight on the incident.
The document says that when the aircraft got into a “bubble” (when the aircrafts were coming from different direction before engagements) the F-22 quickly turned and had the Mirage at its target pointers i.e in front of it. The F-22 has a good turning radius due to its thrust vector engines and a good thrust to weight ratio (the power of the engine compare to the weight of the aircraft). The cunningly Mirage pilot went for a Defensive spiral and almost sent the F-22 crashing into the ground due to the high speeds of the F-22. The rest was history vertical scissors, Immelmann and even the S-cobra couldn,t save the F-22. The Americans were given matching orders by the Mirage pilot and rented to base.

It quiet obvious that the Mirage pilot had done his home work and used the power full engines of the F-22 to the F-22 disadvantages.


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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  jasiri on Sat Feb 12 2011, 21:17

Risasi wrote:@mzalendo I am Risasi the Lead bullet. Very Happy

@blog Based on what we are discussing coincidentally a week the F-22 engaged in a Dogfight with a Mirage and the F-22 was shot down. This was a real dog fight the only thing that didn’t happen was launching an air to air missile or firing the gun. Dog fights heavily depends on the pilots I.Q, stamina and training..

For those who would like a link to such a incident, it unlikely that you would find one at this moment, cause it’s still privileged, fresh and embarrassing news, but give it time and it will appear.

Dogfight are here to stay and they are the most dreaded scenarios in air combat which so ever type of aircraft you are flying.

Insight on the incident.
The document says that when the aircraft got into a “bubble” (when the aircrafts were coming from different direction before engagements) the F-22 quickly turned and had the Mirage at its target pointers i.e in front of it. The F-22 has a good turning radius due to its thrust vector engines and a good thrust to weight ratio (the power of the engine compare to the weight of the aircraft). The cunningly Mirage pilot went for a Defensive spiral and almost sent the F-22 crashing into the ground due to the high speeds of the F-22. The rest was history vertical scissors, Immelmann and even the S-cobra couldn,t save the F-22. The Americans were given matching orders by the Mirage pilot and rented to base.

It quiet obvious that the Mirage pilot had done his home work and used the power full engines of the F-22 to the F-22 disadvantages.


How the heck would the immelman have helped him since he was obviously going too fast at the wrong direction? according to my limited knowledge of air combat, all the moves described above would have hardly helped him gain altitude Shocked

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Risasi on Mon Feb 14 2011, 07:47

@jasiri.The above is just a brief description of what happened its not a vivid picture. more maneuver were also used . Search the web I think the news is out now but I think it’s still in French.

the french also wanted a match between the Rafale vs the F-22.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Olekoima on Mon Feb 14 2011, 08:23

mzalendo wrote:@Olekoima ya you are correct bt the technogy is still not for sell.

Ooh, thanks for the info Mzalendo. I just wrote without paying attention to detail, but my point came thro'.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  mzalendo on Mon Feb 14 2011, 09:15

@Olekoima i have nothing against if we strike on a common ground . the truth is such type of equipment wouldn,t be sold to third world africa. a missile that relays on the air craft body heat rather than the tail heat to shoot it down ? this means that you can shoot down an aircraft from any angle what so ever the make of the aircraft. i don,t think that type of equipment can be disposed to an african country even if they are ready to scarfies their citzens for that. the technogy is still to advance Very Happy

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Olekoima on Mon Feb 14 2011, 16:33

mzalendo wrote:@Olekoima i have nothing against if we strike on a common ground . the truth is such type of equipment wouldn,t be sold to third world africa. a missile that relays on the air craft body heat rather than the tail heat to shoot it down ? this means that you can shoot down an aircraft from any angle what so ever the make of the aircraft. i don,t think that type of equipment can be disposed to an african country even if they are ready to scarfies their citzens for that. the technogy is still to advance Very Happy

Well, that is correct. I agree with you on this.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Flying Crane on Tue Feb 15 2011, 07:00

Risasi wrote:@mzalendo I am Risasi the Lead bullet. Very Happy

@blog Based on what we are discussing coincidentally a week the F-22 engaged in a Dogfight with a Mirage and the F-22 was shot down. This was a real dog fight the only thing that didn’t happen was launching an air to air missile or firing the gun. Dog fights heavily depends on the pilots I.Q, stamina and training..

For those who would like a link to such a incident, it unlikely that you would find one at this moment, cause it’s still privileged, fresh and embarrassing news, but give it time and it will appear.

Dogfight are here to stay and they are the most dreaded scenarios in air combat which so ever type of aircraft you are flying.

Insight on the incident.
The document says that when the aircraft got into a “bubble” (when the aircrafts were coming from different direction before engagements) the F-22 quickly turned and had the Mirage at its target pointers i.e in front of it. The F-22 has a good turning radius due to its thrust vector engines and a good thrust to weight ratio (the power of the engine compare to the weight of the aircraft). The cunningly Mirage pilot went for a Defensive spiral and almost sent the F-22 crashing into the ground due to the high speeds of the F-22. The rest was history vertical scissors, Immelmann and even the S-cobra couldn,t save the F-22. The Americans were given matching orders by the Mirage pilot and rented to base.

It quiet obvious that the Mirage pilot had done his home work and used the power full engines of the F-22 to the F-22 disadvantages.




I know a msg is being pass a cross here. that the F-5 can take out The Su30. But what you have to understand is such things do happen. The F-22 is s relatively new aircraft and it’s likely the pilot was inexperienced with the aircraft. Such dogfights are performed by many airforce when they get new aircraft, Dogfights between existing fighters against the current fighters. I guess you too have done it against your new F-5. And in most case the old pilots do win due to handling experience. So don,t treat it as breaking news.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Olekoima on Tue Feb 15 2011, 16:42

@Flying Crane,
I must admit you really have so much faith in this SU-30 bird. It is a good one no doubt, but it alone will not solve all your airborne threats. You will need all the other related infrastructure as well plus this bird is not really suited for the needs of a small country such as Uganda unless of course you are planning for long range missions like fighting say Egypt. More over a country with sound air defense capability in form of good SAMs will most likely render the bird redundant. In the 1973 Arab-Israeli conflict, Israeli vastly superior fighter jets took a heavy beating from Egyptian SAMs whose inferior air force then stayed behind the protection of SAMs to give support to ground fighters. Looking South you will note that TZ is one country with enormous air defense capability making it almost impossible to violate her air space. TZs air force on the other hand is relatively weak and modest. Even in the 70's when Uganda's air wing was very strong in the region and 3rd largest in sub-Saharan Africa, they still found it impossible to penetrate Tanzanian air space owing to the latter's sound inventory of AD capability( i' am reffering to the UG-TZ war of 1978-79).

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Risasi on Wed Feb 16 2011, 07:09

Flying Crane wrote:
Risasi wrote:@mzalendo I am Risasi the Lead bullet. Very Happy

@blog Based on what we are discussing coincidentally a week the F-22 engaged in a Dogfight with a Mirage and the F-22 was shot down. This was a real dog fight the only thing that didn’t happen was launching an air to air missile or firing the gun. Dog fights heavily depends on the pilots I.Q, stamina and training..

For those who would like a link to such a incident, it unlikely that you would find one at this moment, cause it’s still privileged, fresh and embarrassing news, but give it time and it will appear.

Dogfight are here to stay and they are the most dreaded scenarios in air combat which so ever type of aircraft you are flying.

Insight on the incident.
The document says that when the aircraft got into a “bubble” (when the aircrafts were coming from different direction before engagements) the F-22 quickly turned and had the Mirage at its target pointers i.e in front of it. The F-22 has a good turning radius due to its thrust vector engines and a good thrust to weight ratio (the power of the engine compare to the weight of the aircraft). The cunningly Mirage pilot went for a Defensive spiral and almost sent the F-22 crashing into the ground due to the high speeds of the F-22. The rest was history vertical scissors, Immelmann and even the S-cobra couldn,t save the F-22. The Americans were given matching orders by the Mirage pilot and rented to base.

It quiet obvious that the Mirage pilot had done his home work and used the power full engines of the F-22 to the F-22 disadvantages.




I know a msg is being pass a cross here. that the F-5 can take out The Su30. But what you have to understand is such things do happen. The F-22 is s relatively new aircraft and it’s likely the pilot was inexperienced with the aircraft. Such dogfights are performed by many airforce when they get new aircraft, Dogfights between existing fighters against the current fighters. I guess you too have done it against your new F-5. And in most case the old pilots do win due to handling experience. So don,t treat it as breaking news.


@Crane
The Mirage and the F-22 as far as I know haven’t been operated by the same country. The mirage is French and the F-22 is American. therefore the engagement wasn’t a “bed wetting welcoming ceremony” as you suggest or a friendly unofficial engagements by pilots during air shows. The Dogfight was part of the Air Tactical Leadership Course exercise. All pilots were qualified and high skilled guys seconded by their air force. The F-22 is flown by the best pilots that the USAF has. In that exercise the F-22 the most modern fighter of the USA was confronted six times by French Mirage and lost 5:1. An overwhelming victory to the French.

Another interesting encounter was between the Rafale (french) vs the Typhoon (british/german tech). in the engagements 4 rafale vs 4 typhoons, all typhoons were brought down. Again a win to the French.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  jasiri on Wed Feb 16 2011, 13:37

Risasi, the Eurofighter Typhoon is highly overrated. In Indra-Dhanush '07, Typhoons were completely washed out by the I.A.F SU-30MKI's. I think this aircraft is more suitable to the African skies than the highly advanced Asian and European skies. For the Rafale, man that's one bird i seriously wish our air force would have. Superior avionics (Thales don't joke with their jobs), super agility minus TVC. The only hindrance is the hefty price tag, but with Sarkozy's zeal to export this bird i am sure a deal can be worked.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Olekoima on Wed Feb 16 2011, 18:40

I relish the fact that the Mirage and the Rafale have beaten competition. This will definitely boost sales of the two plus helping to deflate egos of the proud Americans and some of their staunch allies in the West. What is more, it will offer many countries a wide variety of choices to select from without the usual intimidation and blackmail.
However,due to the prohibitive cost of the Rafale, it might be years before third world countries such as Kenya can lay their hands on such a bird. A more likely candidate for Kenya might be the F-16, the Chinese J-10 , the American F-15 and possibly the Swedish Jas 39 Gripen. Just look at these unit costs,
1) Dassault Rafale USD 82.5-90.5m
2) Eurofighter Typhoon USD 81m
3) F- 18 Super Hornet USD 59m
4) Jas 39 Gripen USD 40-61m
5) SU-30 USD 33-45m
6) F-15 Strike Eagle USD 29.9m
7) MiG 29 USD 29m
Cool J-10 USD 28m
9) Dassault Mirage 2000 USD 23m
10) F-16 Fighting Falcon USD 18.8m
Incidentally Eastern suppliers offer cheaper yet very formidable alternatives.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  jasiri on Thu Feb 17 2011, 00:14

Olekoima wrote:I relish the fact that the Mirage and the Rafale have beaten competition. This will definitely boost sales of the two plus helping to deflate egos of the proud Americans and some of their staunch allies in the West. What is more, it will offer many countries a wide variety of choices to select from without the usual intimidation and blackmail.
However,due to the prohibitive cost of the Rafale, it might be years before third world countries such as Kenya can lay their hands on such a bird. A more likely candidate for Kenya might be the F-16, the Chinese J-10 , the American F-15 and possibly the Swedish Jas 39 Gripen. Just look at these unit costs,
1) Dassault Rafale USD 82.5-90.5m
2) Eurofighter Typhoon USD 81m
3) F- 18 Super Hornet USD 59m
4) Jas 39 Gripen USD 40-61m
5) SU-30 USD 33-45m
6) F-15 Strike Eagle USD 29.9m
7) MiG 29 USD 29m
Cool J-10 USD 28m
9) Dassault Mirage 2000 USD 23m
10) F-16 Fighting Falcon USD 18.8m
Incidentally Eastern suppliers offer cheaper yet very formidable alternatives.
Most of the prices you quote are of the baseline models (A) but still they pretty much give a good impression of the cost of an advanced model. If it comes to spending id go any day for the Russians over others. The MiG-35, Su-30 MKK, Su-35 are masterpieces and they do not cost nearly as much as a western equal. In addition, having this birds gives us a sort of AEW&CS capability that can be greatly used to vector our tiger units-unlike the Ugandan case where the Su-30 is the only flyable piece in the arsenal. To add to that, it guarantees at least 20 years free of purchases. Having these birds will give us the best of both worlds. with our good standing with NATO and the U.S.A.F i see us being invited to RedFlag and so this in effect gives us an unmatched combat trained air force. Then again, the politics of the day may not permit such a purchase.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Risasi on Thu Feb 17 2011, 08:27

@ olekoima nice insight on aircrafts and reputable birds with nice tag. newer aircrafts are needed sooner rather the latter.

ALTC exercise result boosted sell on French aviation. The U.A.E AF has given an all thumbs up for a custom made Mirage called the Mirage2000-9. Pronounced as Mirage 2009. a rafale in a Mirage suit…….. this is what shoot down The F-22.

@ jasiri I have personal seen this Mirage2009 and the maneuvers it has is as good as a TVC bird. Surprisingly. Itt reducing power to zero speed and accelerating again at impossible angles. About the typhoon it’s the only fighter that can dog fight at a supersonic speed. Thanks to its super cruise engine. I really don’t know what happens in those Indian exercises. The last time I read an article the Indians whooped the Americans in both the green and red teams. The Yankees then invited the Indians to Nellis AFB for the famous red flag, and the odds changed. The Indians were taught who really is the master of the sky.

by the way the F-5 featured too in the last red flag exercise and the Americans admitted that they is still no modern aircraft that has a definite president over the TigerIII. The Achilles heel lays in the dog fighting speeds. All modern fighters apart from the Typhoon still have to reduce their speed to medium ranges in order to dog fight. And this is the comfort and optimum dog fighting condition for the F-5.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Risasi on Tue Mar 01 2011, 08:17

mzalendo wrote:@risasi r u risasi lead or risasi bullet. Very Happy
anyway I think that that type of Technology is still advance and it will be out of reach for third world countries. ARAAM is the missile


advance sidewinder used by the KAF. It can engage from all directions. this picture is more then 5 yre old, Contemplate that.


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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Olekoima on Tue Mar 01 2011, 17:44

Risasi wrote:
mzalendo wrote:@risasi r u risasi lead or risasi bullet. Very Happy
anyway I think that that type of Technology is still advance and it will be out of reach for third world countries. ARAAM is the missile


advance sidewinder used by the KAF. It can engage from all directions. this picture is more then 5 yre old, Contemplate that.


Awesome, i wonder if anyone will refute this piece of detail.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  Olekoima on Tue Mar 01 2011, 17:46

Can these be true?
http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=31080

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

Post  mJESHI mMOJA on Tue Mar 01 2011, 19:12

Olekoima wrote:Can these be true?
http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=31080

@Olekoima I don’t think it’s going to be the convectional old fashion way with infantry and tanks. if the operation will be granted it might be based on rapid action special force type of operation. softens with artillery and air power assess then go in with special forces clean ,mob and pull out. All such an operation will be widely spreaded for budget reasons and ground assessment. But yet still more has to be done before we reach to such deployment levels.

@Risasi and Olekoima lets wait for some1 to refute the above F-5 picture as a "Microsoft copy and paste photoshop" Very Happy .
this time i will tell the admin to expel him or i would leave the site. guys this is a writting on the wall.

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Re: Kenya Defence Force

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